Skyscript Astrology Forum

Thank you, AJ, for your excellent exposition of principles and pathways in India's astrology. James, you have our own personal guru here for the moment in AJ. I had started to reply to questions in your posts, but am letting them go for now as there have been new inroads on my time. So for now I'll limit my remarks to one area.

James wrote:

Here is another one - retrograde planets.. if you read most traditional astrology, retro is considered a serious liability.. indian astrology seems to view this noticeably different... who is right, or is there some truth in both perspectives that require a deeper understanding? presently i think the later, but i have nothing to prove it to you.. in order to understand something better i think one needs to understand all the moving parts!
(...)
how about Moon, Saturn and Mars are stronger at night then in the day and etc. etc. ??

Of course these thoughts and others you expressed, James, describe the complexity of Jyotish, and astrology in general. These are the reasons Krishnamurti and S.P. Khullar give for the discovery/development of their systems. Khullar expressly ignores the complexities of Jyotish such as retrograde planets, combustion and even aspect theory.

Chart analysis in his system relies solely on the inter-relationships of planets and houses, as manifested in concrete events such as marriage, childbirth, love-money-health more or less, and the outline of life periods based on Dasas and sub-periods. Krishnamurti talked sometimes about personal reactions (good or bad) depending on small events happening in time.

From what I understand, Khullar has been the object of much criticism in India for his work, as he forsakes so much of classical Jyotish. This is why out of curiosity I’ve returned to testing the KP/Khullar systems as I no longer work with clients. Using minute areas of the zodiac (down to as little as two astrological minutes) is supposed to reflect the influence of Nadi astrology in the KP/Khullar systems. In recent years I've also taken the by-way of studying the translations of early western classical texts and comparing principles to India's astrology.

I will add one very important principle to AJ's experienced and practical comments on India's astrology: The student and practicing astrologer must have an excellent memory. Otherwise one easily becomes lost at sea. With the requisite memory an individual builds his astrological palace through observation and experience spanning his entire life. If the majority of charts studied remain in memory, they provide a solid foundation for future work, and certain principles fall naturally into place.

Therese Hamilton wrote:....there have been new inroads on my time. So for now I'll limit my remarks to one area.

Therese: I hope this does not mean your going away? but that you will still drop in from time to time I hope. The KP/Khuller insights have been very fascinating to me as well as your knowledgeable penetrations into astrology.

AJ, no I'm not going away, but I'm under a Uranus transit at this time (and those Uranus transits are REAL, which is why many astrologers in India have started to use the trans-Saturnian planets), and life keeps throwing curve balls which are eating up time.

Also I meditate daily (Yogananda's Kriya Yoga), and it seems that my natural inclination now is right brain intuitive spiritual processes, so that disciplined study is more and more difficult. Is this my age or the effects of meditation? I'm not sure at this time. The change in emphasis has definitely come from Uranus. A few months ago I finished a technical paper that took lots of time and disciplined research. I don't think I could write that paper now. I'd like to send you and James a copy of the paper which is on the origin of the sidereal zodiac, but I have to wait until it's published. Editors of the British Correlation have the paper.

If you're interested I'd also like to send you and James a collection I put together from sources that mention or discuss the Indian Equal House system. If you'd like to see these references, please send your personal email address to: eastwest9@snowcrest. net

I'd love to keep researching KP/Khullar astrology, but some days I seem to be living in the astral dimension. I tire rather easily now which is why I'm not replying to many comments I would have enjoyed writing about a year or two ago. Thank you for asking, AJ. I'm so glad you are here to discuss Jyotish with James.

hi therese,

thanks for your many comments and on your perspective at this moment in time regarding the different systems, and systems within the different disciplines - like indian or western astrology...

to use an analogy - astrology for me has been like growing up in a multicultural community... there was no one way, just a lot of different ways... i notice a lot of parallels and cross over ideas that i have read before in western astrology, appearing in my reading of indian astrology.. this is one key consideration that makes the study of indian astrology slightly easier.. i am not saying i know that much and am reminded of lao tzu's saying to the effect - the further you go, the less you know!!! this is certainly true in life and in astrology... aj calls it shivas curse.. i just call it living life as applied to astrology!

outside my window is a trapeze artist... he has jumped from the trellis to the oak tree.. i think acquiring knowledge or acorns, as the case may be, is a lot like this.. a lot of it, you have to throw away too.. memory is retained when you see something that works.. it is like being stung by a bee, or touching something that is too hot - you remember! you retain astrology insight based on seeing a technique and approach that works..

therese, thanks for your kind gesture of receiving your papers and research that are in the process of being published... i am presently swamped with too much reading at present... another poster here on skyscript - astroart - gave me a pdf of abu ma'shars book - ALBUMASAR IN SADAN, which i have yet to read as well! i am slightly obsessed with the navamsha books that i have read and am in the middle of reading... i am going to make a post on some of what i have found out, but it is mostly being made aware of different navamsha techniques, without being able to apply them just yet...

in the example of queen elizabeths chart with navamsha chart, i wonder how much the two of you factor in saturns full aspect to mars, jupiter and the midheaven?? this aspect is repeated in the natal chart as well - minus the midheaven... from what i gather - and this is just dogma from someones comments in a book talking - saturn in cancer in the navamsha, lessens the strength of saturn in the natal chart... it sure seems to me the 8th house is emphasized thanks moons rulership of the 8th and by it being in cancer in the natal chart and on the ascendant in both the natal and navamsha chart.. well, it is a thread on the royal family after all and the topic of much conversation internationally too with different people divided on the whole concept of continuing this tradition of maintaining the royal family as head of the gov't, especially of the different ''commonwealth'' countries that have even had some changes of this system too.. queen elizabeth has hung in for the long haul and overseen a lot of changes since her reign officially began - feb 6th 1952.... that is a long gig! 67 years to be exact!!

james_m wrote: in the example of queen elizabeths chart with navamsha chart, i wonder how much the two of you factor in saturns full aspect to mars, jupiter and the midheaven?? this aspect is repeated in the natal chart as well - minus the midheaven... from what i gather - and this is just dogma from someones comments in a book talking - saturn in cancer in the navamsha, lessens the strength of saturn in the natal chart... it sure seems to me the 8th house is emphasized thanks moons rulership of the 8th and by it being in cancer in the natal chart and on the ascendant in both the natal and navamsha chart.. well, it is a thread on the royal family after all and the topic of much conversation internationally too with different people divided on the whole concept of continuing this tradition of maintaining the royal family as head of the gov't, especially of the different ''commonwealth'' countries that have even had some changes of this system too.. queen elizabeth has hung in for the long haul and overseen a lot of changes since her reign officially began - feb 6th 1952.... that is a long gig! 67 years to be exact!!

Did not spend a lot of time on this chart I must admit. Only came at it from the strength angle but these are great observations James. The "traditional" theme with Saturn and QEII certainly stand out now that you mention it.
The square to Mars and Jupiter usually wouldn't count as a full aspect but I would consider it a 75% if it were just a little closer in orb. The natal sextile to the ascendant is certainly a full aspect in my book, not all Jyotishis consider out of sign aspects though. To me, Sa in the 8th house in navamsa is only weak for the purposes of the D9, or dharma, spouse and general fortune but dharma would fit in with your delineation. The Queens dharma has been to sustain/defend the anachronism of the monarchy. [As an aside, I think the Duchess of Sussex in the coming years is going to upset the royal applecart, actually a lot.] The D9 asc being the same as the natal does make the D9 more notable to the natal. Maybe equally significant as the Sa/Mo/8th connection is the D9Nodes falling across 1/7axis afflicting D9Su (leadership/royalty) ruling the D9/9th house (dharma) as well as the D9Mo/asc of mind.

thanks aj,

i am curious about your 'aside' comment..



the 10th lord in rasi - mars, is in the 12th and squares onto the 9th lord jupiter.. it also squares onto her ascendant-descendant lords too..

meanwhile in the navamsha chart which has the same ascendant - the same planets under the mars aspect in the rasi chart appear in the 10th, while mars is in the 9th.. mutual reception is happening between the 9th and 10th lord..

again, i don't know that much about reading these charts yet..

james_m wrote:thanks aj,

i am curious about your 'aside' comment..

the 10th lord in rasi - mars, is in the 12th and squares onto the 9th lord jupiter.. it also squares onto her ascendant-descendant lords too..

meanwhile in the navamsha chart which has the same ascendant - the same planets under the mars aspect in the rasi chart appear in the 10th, while mars is in the 9th.. mutual reception is happening between the 9th and 10th lord..

again, I don't know that much about reading these charts yet..

I hold grave misgivings about the Cancer rising chart for the duchess. I can't use that chart to explain my "aside" comment. I haven't had enough time to put all reasonings together but once I do I'll post them here.

James wrote:

to use an analogy - astrology for me has been like growing up in a multicultural community... there was no one way, just a lot of different ways... i notice a lot of parallels and cross over ideas that i have read before in western astrology, appearing in my reading of indian astrology.. this is one key consideration that makes the study of indian astrology slightly easier..

Or these parallels can cause confusion, such as the characteristics of the Tropical so-called four elements being copied to India's astrology. I've posted on this error before, and already books being published in India are including copied Tropical interpretations of these "elements." (The paper I mentioned above sets the record straight, as classical texts never linked these four elements to Rasis.)

... another poster here on skyscript - astroart - gave me a pdf of abu ma'shars book - ALBUMASAR IN SADAN, which i have yet to read as well!

I wouldn't even try to read Abu Ma'shar in a PDF, unless that particular text is very brief.

I am slightly obsessed with the navamsha books that i have read and am in the middle of reading... i am going to make a post on some of what i have found out, but it is mostly being made aware of different navamsha techniques, without being able to apply them just yet...

The most scholarly and in-depth expositions of the Navamsa are in two books by C.S. Patel: Navamsa in Astrology, Sagar Publications, 1997-2015 and Predicting Through Navamsa and Nadi Astrology, Sagar Publications, 1996-2016. I haven't seen the two books you mentioned so far, but if they are published after Patel's first edition books, those books should be given as references.

Indian authors are often very deficient in giving credit to past authors. I hope the author(s) of the books you are reading give the references they used. I'd like to see a list of the full author, title and publication information on the books you have mentioned as I gave here for Patel's books. Also if the author(s) list references and a bibliography. Thank you if you have time for this!

AJ wrote:

I hold grave misgivings about the Cancer rising chart for the duchess. I can't use that chart to explain my "aside" comment. I haven't had enough time to put all reasonings together but once I do I'll post them here.

AJ, I'm very much interested in what you have to say about the Duchess's chart! In the meantime I hope to find time to check the Khullar rectification.

As a side note, your posts are much easier to read (larger font) when you place your comments outside the quote box that quotes others. Sometimes you do this, and sometimes not.

Therese Hamilton wrote:your posts are much easier to read (larger font) when you place your comments outside the quote box that quotes others. Sometimes you do this, and sometimes not.

I know, I did those inside the quotes with my smartphone where it is much harder to manipulate the text... It was just easier with the small screen. I will try and avoid that.

I've been wanting to comment on the difference in perspective between studying and analyzing astrology and charts, and the actual client-astrologer setting. When an astrologer is working with a client, an invisible psychic connection exists between the two. This connection helps the intuitive astrologer to zero in on parts of the chart that relate specifically to the client among the numerous chart patterns.

The scientific study of astrology is much more difficult because there are so many diverse factors to consider. The student is faced with myriad possibilities of each planet's expression. It takes a very different type of mind to make sense of research in astrology compared to the intuitive/psychic response in client situations. At this time astrology is badly in need of left brain research capabilities to help sort out the relevant from what really doesn't work. Such as, are there really two valid zodiacs?? Or not? Unfortunately those with left brain capabilities aren't attracted to astrology.

P. S. AJ, you typed all of that text on a smartphone??!!!

aj regarding the duchess chart - i am still curious why you hold the thoughts you do.. let me know if you are up for it.. thanks.

Therese Hamilton wrote: The most scholarly and in-depth expositions of the Navamsa are in two books by C.S. Patel: Navamsa in Astrology, Sagar Publications, 1997-2015 and Predicting Through Navamsa and Nadi Astrology, Sagar Publications, 1996-2016. I haven't seen the two books you mentioned so far, but if they are published after Patel's first edition books, those books should be given as references. !

therese, it seems to be a feature of sagars publications that a list of references and etc. is not a part of the deal... of all the sagar books i have, very few have much in the way of references.. that book on the nakshatras by prash trivedi is an exception.. that might be due the fact sagar put it out around 20 years ago... maybe they thought it was worthwhile then, but not so much now.. maybe send sagar a note!~

i repeat - the 2 books on navamsha are
charisma of navamsha (composite vedic and nadi approach) - raj kumar.. sagar pub. 2013 first edition
predict with navamsha - v.p.goel. sagar pub...2017.

no mention of other books on navamsha in these 2 books as i recall and definitely not in some organized way like at the front or back of book..

i am going to get the books you mention and am looking forward to reading as much as i can on navamsha... goels book is the best so far.. i have another 2 of his books coming in the mail.. Comprehensive Prediciton by Divisional Charts: An original research work 2012 and Predict With Dashamsha 2017..

https://www.vedicbooks.net/predict-comp ... 16694.html