Skyscript Astrology Forum

thanks aj!

it is interesting to see in retrospect! i think all astrologers are aware of how hindsight is 20/20!

i wanted to understand the role of the dasas and yogas as part of my indian astrology learning curve.. although i didn't include any of these key indian astrology elements, i feel that exercises like this provide an opportunity to examine this...

so what came out of the saturn / venus dasa here?

what yogas define any of this?

i note the conjunction of the leo planets to the north node in leo in alexs 5th house - a house associated with sex.. mars in particular - rules the 1st and 8th and is conjunct the 5th house north node... and all these leo planets are brought to the 8th house via the cap rising solar return for this year.. i think i might have mentioned this in my post, but i did not speculate on it as it happened.. in fact the solar return chart as a stand alone chart reinforces the strength of saturn in libra ruling over the ascendant which in itself would be positive... on the other hand - saturn is in aries in the annual profection chart for 1953 as shown below.. coincidentally venus - the sublord dasa venus is on the 5th house cusp, while ruling the 3rd and 8th... also mars is in leo in the profection chart - same place as it is in the 1953 solar return chart..

Therese Hamilton wrote:AJ, since Alex is an elder now, can you give us some details about his life as a whole to round out his natal chart?

Morphine at 17; street prostitute then became a pimp himself.

Therese Hamilton wrote:Nope, never would have seen it!! But it does match natal Pluto on the 7th cusp of the solar return which James mentioned. And the 9th house didn't relate to travel. It related to another common association of the 9th house, the father (also the stepfather apparently?).

Stepfather is a natural conclusion since also the ninth house is one's guru, another type of father figure. So, 9th could be any strong father figure in one's life. My own stepfather was a stronger (positive) influence on me than my own dad after about age ten. Some would consider the ninth from the ninth as representing stepfather but I think that's a slippery slope. Relations per houses are few and far between. Pretty safe ones are:
1: Self
2: Male child/Spouse
3: Younger co-borns/siblings
4: Mother
5: Children
6: Maternal Uncle
7: Spouse (primary karaka)
9: Father
11: Elder siblings, more traditionally elder brother.

Often I find that the 4th and 9th and the Sun and Moon in progressions can mean a "parent". Beyond these significators, it's not really feasible to find relations by house.

AJ wrote:

Morphine at 17; street prostitute then became a pimp himself.

I have a great deal of difficulty dealing with this kind of sadness in a life, so couldn't have seen this in a birth chart. Years ago when I was in training for my M.A. degree (psychological counseling) I had a stint in the Gay/drugs area of San Francisco. I was like a fish out of water, and had to transfer to a more congenial type of counseling environment.

So a very good astrologer would have recognized Alex's chart as extremely troubled based on past karma. This explains the weak ascendant lord Mars combust and just on the sandhi point between the 5th and 6th houses. Also the very weak Moon just into Pisces, Jupiter its sign and star dispositor so badly afflicted from the navamsa chart.

Jupiter seems to be totally bad, and it seems the main way of explaining this is the Jupiter-Saturn-Rahu conjuction from the navamsa. Also these planets are in the 8th house in the navamsa.



Navamsa Mars-Uranus are in Aries, the natal ascendant sign. In the navamsa they are in the 6th house.

Venus is with Pluto in Scorpio, the ascendant sign. The navamsa ascendant degree is only a few degrees away from the natal 8th cusp.

I wondered about 7th lord Venus in the natal 5th. We can probably assume that Alex himself abused children during his life on the streets.

I think we do need the navamsa planets and navamsa houses to explain Alex's life. It's just very sad. I have to leave this chart now.

Therese Hamilton wrote: I wondered about 7th lord Venus in the natal 5th. We can probably assume that Alex himself abused children during his life on the streets.

I think we do need the navamsa planets and navamsa houses to explain Alex's life. It's just very sad. I have to leave this chart now.

Yes, no doubt your conclusions are correct Therese and I understand. I am not a psychologist or pretend to be but for whatever reason, something in the human psyche causes these terrible things to be repeated as the abused then become the abusers. Makes no sense to me, but I have seen this terrible cycle appear again and again and it breaks my heart.
Om, Shanthi Shanthi Shanthi to you.
Jai Guru!

james_m wrote: so what came out of the saturn / venus dasa here?

Examples are the best for learning dasha bhukti results... 20/20 rules!
In Alex's chart, the main period lord Saturn is the second house placed in the star of the Moon, which is in the 12th house and rules the 4th. So family and home are the main themes. the Moon in the 12th brings the associations of isolation and loss. The 10th house is empty so Alex's outward expression is to demand a strong role model whatever that may be for good or bad.
Venus is placed in the 5th house and in its own star. Yet because the Rahu/Ketu axis is conjunct the fifth house cusp (Chalit) the fifth house is very damaged. Venus' disposter the Sun is badly placed and weak in the 6th house of physical health and afflicted by 8th lord of accidents and death-like experiences Mars. Mars also afflicts the 9th house (Chalit) whose star is Ketu. Saturn also afflicts the 8th house cusp (Chalit) so this makes Mars a bit nastier.

This would to me stand out as a likelihood of some sort of physical danger or abuse.

As you have correctly reckoned James the 5th house is involved with sex. I am finding a lot of this associated in the themes of recent molestation/rape charts I have studied. I was a bit rattled at having gotten Hamish's chart so wrong as I am usually pretty good at blind readings, not perfect, of course not; but I missed so much in hindsight I have been researching this.

[Alex cont.]
Now in children's charts, the home is everything extending to the parents. In D4 (home/fortunes) Saturn and Venus are caught in the Rahu/Ketu axis on the 5/11th house axis too. Ketu conjoins Venus and afflicts the Sun in D4/9th. there's some other configs but you get the picture.
D7 is a bit of a mess, especially with Ve.
D8 (challenges) ascendant lord Sa is in the 8th. Ve in H9 is afflicted by Ra/Ke from the 5th, which in turn afflict the D8 asc. Moon in the 10th is a goner too.
Interestingly the D12 is not bad for Venus but otherwise, Sa is caught in the Rahu/Ketu axis. For night births someone told me once that Saturn can be an alternative karaka for father. I've not tested this.
The Saturn/Venus period is not good for Alex in the natal and supported in some select Vargas.

I wanted to note that many other people were born at the same time Alex was, but with an entirely different life path. Much of this difference would be related to the rising sign in the navamsa which shifts houses, but also most likely there are smaller divisions of the zodiac that distinguish charts that we have yet to learn about. (This is the focus of the Khullar research.) This means that the various delineations could apply to others born around the same time as Alex.

I’ve gone back to review AJ’s earlier post which at first I skipped over due to the long unbroken paragraph that I have trouble reading on-line. (A plea to everyone to keep paragraphs to a max of 6 or 7 lines!!) So I copied AJ’s long paragraph and put it in my word processor to break up the text into smaller segments. There are a number of key points in this post that I think are important to emphasize.

AJ wrote:

As far as the profection (also called Muntha, progressed ascendant) falling in the natal 12th whole sign house of losses and isolation certainly resounds as a theme for the year and yet in the solar return falls in the third whole sign house. Now the third SR house is ruled by Jupiter Lord of the SR 12th which is badly placed in the SR 6th house of disputes/physical health.

At least for this natal chart, both these positions speak to the theme of the year for Alex. I guess what I am saying both should be considered. In Varshphal the Lord of the Muntha and its placement/condition is very important for the year.

Yes, this is very important, how the natal and SR work together, and we do need the houses in the SR. The 6th SR is significant here for the placement of Jupiter. (Also note that the natal ascendant falls in the SR 4th house. An interesting principle from western horary is that the 4th is the house of the stepfather as husband of the mother which is given to the 10th. Anyone want yet more confusion in interpreting charts?!)

The SR Moon is certainly highly activated with the mutual aspect it has with Mercury. Mercury is the Year Lord in the Varshphal (Indian solar return),

Can you explain how Mercury is year lord as the western SR would make Ascendant lord Saturn the lord of the year? (I’m not sure about Abu Ma’shar. I'll have to review this and post what he says.)

...lord of the SR Sun and associated with malefic 8th lord the Sun the natural significator for father in the ninth house of father.

A good explanation of the importance of Solar Return houses.

...in hindsight, the mental and physical trauma significations are there. Rahu's affliction to the Sun and both SR Mars and SR Venus in the SR 8th of death and deathlike experiences. Both of the passion planets here and badly placed is very fitting.

Another indication of the importance of SR houses, in this case, the 8th.

SR Ra is afflicting both SR Su, natal Ma and SR IC.

You are using the trine aspect of Rahu that I forgot to notice. (I think some might miss this and wonder what the affliction is.)

Indeed natal Ra is closely associated with SR Ma and SR Ve.

In retrospect this is a critical key to this time in Alex’s life. Again, we need the SR 8th house to point to how serious and traumatic this event was.

So in summary it seems that we really do need the solar return ascendant and houses, but it’s also important to understand the link to natal planets. We would miss the important picture of the year if we only placed the SR planets in the natal chart and used the natal ascendant as the reference point.

thanks aj and therese for the additional commentary...

yes - saturn as signifactor for the father in a nocturnal birth - that is arabic or greek..

it seems one either focuses on the houses, or they focus on the planets... and of course one can focus on houses, signs and planets too... then there is aspects.... i am still learning to understand the concept of aspects in indian astrology... full aspect, 1/4 aspect and etc. etc...

in looking at alex's chart i am struck by the saturn-venus square aspect.. whether it is a 1/4 aspect or whatever, it also coincides with the dasa lords for this time in alexs life.. aside from the sun-mars conjunction, i'd say it is the most significant aspect in the chart...

poor image and self worth are 2 obvious possibilities with saturn rising and squaring onto venus in the 5th... how this fed into alexs processes, or how the events in alexs life fed into the set up in his chart is one of those which came first - chicken or egg type questions... as it happened in february 1954 jupiter was making a station at 23 taurus - exactly square alexs venus and within a 4 degree conjunction to alexs saturn at 19 taurus... as the lord of the profection for this year, perhaps the transit of jupiter to this saturn-venus square is important? i would never discount transits anyway, but it is one of many elements to the astrology that might be overlooked when looking at everything else..

the way i understand it - the profection lord is the primary lord for the year.. how this dovetails with different dasa concepts is something for others to figure out here.. one takes the profection lord - jupiter and examines its placement in the solar return as well.. in the sr chart it's in the 6th house - so basically not great for this particular jupiter profection year... jupiter trines an exalted saturn in the 10th in the solar return chart.. what does that tell us? saturn is well placed in the solar return chart... this leads me back to the set up in the natal chart - saturn in taurus - 2nd and squared onto venus in the 5th... i don't think a positive set up in a passing chart - transit, solar return or profection - can alter the set up in the natal chart.. some of my 2c's on this....

as for the importance of the 4 pillars of astrology - signs, houses, planets and aspects - i think any astrology that leans too heavily on one of these pillars risks overlooking another corner of the astro room..

Therese Hamilton wrote:

The SR Moon is certainly highly activated with the mutual aspect it has with Mercury. Mercury is the Year Lord in the Varshphal (Indian solar return),

Can you explain how Mercury is year lord as the western SR would make Ascendant lord Saturn the lord of the year? (I’m not sure about Abu Ma’shar. I'll have to review this and post what he says.)

I'll try to explain this as simply as I can.

In Varshphal the Year lord is called the Varsheshwara. The year lord is the planet that has the greatest strength from unique system of strength calculation called the panchbala or 'five-fold strength' The lord of the SR/Su, natal asc, SR/asc, muntha and the trirashi-pati vie between each other to be the year lord.

The trirashi-pati is a novel idea and varies from sign to sign of the SR/asc and also changes if it is a day or night chart. I have a table somewhere of them. I really don't know the origin of it I assume its a Persian import.

The year lord must aspect the SR/asc. Remember that Tajik uses pretty much the Ptolemaic aspects. It's pretty time consuming to calculate by hand.

according to this latest book on yogas i am reading - there are like a zillion yogas almost!

i was thinking about alex's conjunction with mars and sun - rulers of the 1/8 and 5th house... they are in the 6th house/sign - virgo... ordinarily bringing together the rulers of the 1st and 5th would be positive, but one thing the author of the book says is to look for a repeat of any yoga in the root chart in the other important divisional charts... this either strengthens or weakens the nature of the yoga depending on whether they are found in the other divisional charts or not..

the sun-neptune conjunction speaks to the same issue of poor image and self worth which i mentioned in my previous post related to saturn rising in square to venus... this sun-neptune conjunction shows up due how close it is in the root chart... it is in most all of the divisional charts, so a definite planetary yoga couple not discussed in traditional indian astrology... the mars-sun combo does show up in one of the divisional charts - the D30 .. so perhaps although one could say it is important in the root chart, it is not maintained in the divisional charts... the sun-neptune conjunction is however....

in finishing up reading vp goels book on divisional charts, he stressed the importance of the D60 chart using a few logical ideas to say why one really needs to consider it's importance, so as that parashara really emphasized it by giving it a higher value then the navamsha and the same or less then the root chart as well!

below is the D60 off alex's chart... one stipulation on the D60 is the importance of the accuracy of the time.. otherwise a D60R chart is used where you put the planets in the D60 chart in the root chart to see how they strengthen or weaken the overall picture..



i tend to associate mars-pluto hard aspects as indicating a possibility of sexual abuse - either the perpetrator, or the one being victimized.. it stands out fairly clearly in this chart..

here is the D30 chart below.. this is the one other divisional chart where the mars-sun conjunction shows up..this chart is said to highlight the misfortunes which one faces in life.. it is also seen for moral character based off the lagna and moon position.. the vp goel book is quite fascinating for the theories it expounds and which i have next to no real experience in interpreting... again mars is in hard aspect to pluto - this time in the opposition aspect...

Here's a new chart if someone wants to try their expertise at interpretation. Something significant was happening in this woman's life from about the second week in July of this year (2019) until about the third week in September. The birth data is AA from the birth certificate. "Catherine" 23 March 1967, Frankfurt am Main, Germany, 0:46 AM CET. (50N07, 008E40) For Krishnamurti Solar Fire gives an ascendant of 14 Scorpio 59.



For age 52 the profection is Pisces, house 5. With an ascendant in the middle of the sign we don't have to worry about whether whole sign houses are used or some other system. Dasa/bhukti is Mars-Jupiter. The solar return ascendant is 8 Taurus 54 which places the natal ascendant in the 7th house.

Here is the solar return chart, natal planets on the inner wheel and solar return ascendant and planets on the outer wheel:

Therese Hamilton wrote:Something significant was happening in this woman's life from about the second week in July of this year (2019) until about the third week in September. The birth data is AA from the birth certificate. "Catherine" 23 March 1967, Frankfurt am Main, Germany, 0:46 AM CET. (50N07, 008E40) For Krishnamurti Solar Fire gives an ascendant of 14 Scorpio 59.

I would say health problems… rehab/hospitalization/surgery (?weak kidney/liver?). Disturbed relations with spouse too.

If I am correct I will explain my conclusion later, a little time challenged at the moment. Thanks, Therese.