Thanks Atlantean,
July 8th 1985--defintely a Saturn-Pluto event---the most heaviest burden I have ever faced in my life.

I am a dunce when it comes to computer things, but I have a geek friend who will help me get Polaris installed. He is out of town now and it may be a few days before I will know if I have here the protocols to run Polaris. Will keep you advised. Thanks.

Ouranos wrote:

As you can see, a Primary Direction does not happen by itself like an isolated case. There is a forest that comes with it.

Thanks for this comment Ouranos. Being someone with absolutely no experience with PDs, this appears to me that the true art of PDs can only be seen in hindsight.

SteveS

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:33 pm

hi steve.. thanks for your input.. trying to catch up on all the posts right now... the fact is eshelman is using the prime vertical to get at the mundane aspects he is using which i can re create using solfires - z-analogue prime vertical chart option.... ouranos on the other hand is using z-analogue diurnal arc charts to arrive at his set of mundane aspects.. in fact - the mundane aspects gotten off the one are different then off the other... it looks as potentially confusing as choosing between house systems!! i thought i would point this out to you because i am not sure if you are aware there are different ways of getting mundane aspects and they don't turn out the same way as a consequence...

atlantean.. i prefer to call you james as i know that is your name, but it might confuse some here as it has me when ouranos appeared to also use your first name (Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:55 am post) .. i thought they might have been talking to me..

at any rate - i have to defer to martin ganstens comments Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:48 pm ... that is how i understand it as well... ''a tiny adjustment from placidus'... i guess i have read too much, lol... and again i support martins comments @ Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:09 pm... fortunately martin is willing to comment on this thread and makes a most convincing argument to my mind..

and again - kudos to martin @ Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:41 am for saying what i also believe and which i quote at length below..

Martin Gansten wrote:As I said, I'm not out to discuss what 'works', since our criteria are likely to be too different for us ever to agree, and I don't want to derail the thread completely. But since you ask, the only direction from your latest list that seems convincing to me (as in 'I would have predicted that') is the Sun to the square of Saturn for illness.

In my view, the quest for the zero orb is a mistake, because all events are processes, and many of them are spread out over time; moreover, a single direction may correspond to many such events which all agree with its symbolism. An example from real life to match yours: not long ago, a client of mine mentioned that she had recently been troubled by a persistent skin condition (an itching rash) and asthma. I noticed that she had the Asc directed to the opposition of Mercury (= Mercury was setting), so I quoted to her from Lilly's description of that direction:

vaine expence of Money to learne some Science or other to no purpose, an aversnesse from former Studies, subject to the Itch or Scabs, to weak Lungs, difficulty of Breathing, a reviving of some clandestine former Plots or Conspiracies, a restlesse and unquiet time, ever occupied to no purpose, fraud and deceit in Contracts, Words, Letters, the Native involved in Law-suits [...]

That actually made her laugh: in addition to the medical troubles, she had just decided not to pursue a line of education that she had been contemplating, as it was proving too expensive, and she was involved in a drawn-out lawsuit. These events were all perfectly covered by the symbolism and could have been predicted in advance, at least as possibilities; but they took place over a period of many months, perhaps more than a year. The direction in effect created a period, not a point in time.

So I am a minimalist with regard not to orbs but to symbolism, using only classical aspects and planets and making a clear distinction between significators and promissors. Because our expectations of how directions should work differ, we are not likely to convince each other no matter how many examples we cite.

SteveS
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:55 pm

steve.. are you trying to give event dates without the birthchart as root chart to consider the importance of these dates?? it appears so.. i haven't seen you post your birth chart data and to my mind this would be a critical component to understanding the relevance of the dates you mention in your post as posted dec 16th 12:55 pm..

Ouranos
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:43 pm

of course, if it hasn't already been stated, any of these techniques are not stand alone techniques as i see it.. primary directions and etc. etc. need support from other predictive techniques in astrology.... i suppose this is what you are trying to say in your post here, but of course different astrologers will use different tools to arrive at conclusions in advance of events... some seem to be better at it then others and we can all learn from others sharing of there system too!

okay.. it appears steve s gave atlantean his birth data in a pm, because atlantean is working off something more then just an event chart... confusing to follow for others.. i am sure this must be obvious for anyone who has tried! if steve wants to provide his birth data to everyone, it might be an interesting exercise for the group of us..

SteveS wrote: Linchi, thanks, I understand where you are coming from, but I have enough experience with my astrological life’s compass (40 years) to understand in knowing ways what/if any planetary symbolism means in my life for any one specific day that may or may not be important relative to my life environments/objectives. Right now, I need to get enough experience under by belt with these new systems in order to determine if I can fit & work these new astrological systems into my life objectives.

Steve, astrologer Dymock Brose used to ask such questions as an astrological exercise with the selections for the astrologers. I thought this would be a good exercise for the other readers too. No more and no less.

I hope you understand and peace be with you.

I didn't understand and was surprised why you wrote those two sentences.

Peace be with you too, Steve.

Hey Steve,

Re: "Thanks Atlantean, July 8th 1985--defintely a Saturn-Pluto event---the most heaviest burden I have ever faced in my life."

Then surely you must be impressed, since that was the ONLY Primary Direction even under consideration, using your 10 am birthtime!

We had ONE PD to look at, and from your testimony, it is an extremely fitting one.

Sorry...gotta say, "Bingo!"

As for getting Polaris running...I would also recommend waiting for your computer friend, because setting up a virtual machine sometimes runs into a configuration question or a problem that needs to be solved. I've been in IT most of my life (and I'm like you, ie. not young) and I still enlisted the help of a friend to make sure I did it right.

Hi James,

Re: "atlantean.. i prefer to call you james as i know that is your name,..."

Either one is just fine. On here, before I was Atlantean, I was TransmaniaconMC. That's a mouthful. lol Debbie thought it sounded impersonal, if I remember correctly, and I agreed, so since I always felt a fondness for anything to do with Atlantis, "Atlantean" was born.

Re: "that is how i understand it as well... ''a tiny adjustment from placidus'

Yes, but it's important to distinguish that this "tiny adjustment from placidus," which is Topocentric, is exactly the correction needed so that these Primary Directions even work. Literally, working these Primary Directions with Placidus gives you a completely non-functioning system.

I don't know anything about Steve's life. He asked me to give him the Primary Directions at the time of a non-described event and there was ONE (within orb).

According to Steve, a very correct one.

This is one event, ie. anecdotal, but I have over 10 years experience with these Primary Directions and when the birthtime is right, they have always been reliable, for out-of-sample events as well as for those used in the rectification.

Until now, I consider the following (and their converses!) to be the systems that are 100% reliable... [I'm not saying this is an exclusive list, there are no doubt more...but I only would vouch for the ones where I have considerable experience...]

Hello Ouranos,

Thank you for taking the time to show a more all-encompassing description of your methodology.

To form any kind of personal opinion, I would definitely have to see it taken out of the theoretical/descriptive and more into the practical. ie. with at least one case example, even a cherry-picked one would be better than none, in this case

When I am discussing things here, relative to Primary Directions, it is always Topocentric Primary Directions. In this system, we're mostly not describing processes that unfold over time, we are describing events.

As I have already provided some practical examples of events etc., let me do as you have done and elaborate a bit about my methodology...

1. Rectification to prevent GIGO

2. Once the birthtime is established as correct, ie. we have the right symbolism for a list of events, in Topocentric Primary Directions, Secondaries, and PSSR aspects; then we can 1) examine past events to extract MEANING and 2) can look at future times to see what to expect over a given time-period or for a specific date (for instance elections, or job interviews, etc.)

3. Analyzing the direct and converse Transits, Secondaries, Tropical and Sidereal Solar Returns, Lunar Returns, Directions, and (direct) Age Harmonics; we synthesize the combined testimonies to arrive at a result. Crucial in this, for me, is to see the actual charts for each system (other than TPDs) as bi-wheels, not just merely aspect lists. Additionally important are the diurnal transiting positions and the associated chart itself, since there are conspicuous alignments that are often extremely indicative.

This is pretty much it, in a nutshell. Though step 3 seems very time-consuming, since it has a lot of "parts," it's actually step 1 that can take the most time, in some cases.

Re: "...okay.. it appears steve s gave atlantean his birth data in a pm, because atlantean is working off something more then just an event chart... confusing to follow for others.. i am sure this must be obvious for anyone who has tried! if steve wants to provide his birth data to everyone, it might be an interesting exercise for the group of us..."

I thought I had Steve's info, but it wasn't in my astro program (Janus!), so I scoured the web for 30 seconds, until I found it.

I'll save you the time,

SteveS
Sept 20 1947
10:00 AM (from Birth Certificate)
Albertville, Alabama

Atlantean, with your last post about the difficulty loading Polaris, I now know for sure I will have to wait on my out of town friend to visit me; when that will be—I don’t know.

I do understand one thing about Age Harmonics and TPDs---must have a precise radical time. I am pretty sure I have a precise radical time for the NYSE:

May 17 1792; 7:52 AM LMT; New York

I have a couple of friend clients who at times know how to exercise very low risk/high reward possible option trades, which requires par-excellent timing. Since I am completely unfamiliar with most of the methodology practice on this forum, if any one wants to offer their opinions about the NYSE for 2022 or any specific time frames for 2022, please post. If any timing offered proves to be right for short term option trading-- rewards will be forth coming through PM communications.

Atlantean has posted my birth info and both he I through his use of Age Harmonics and TPDs are pretty sure my birth time is close to exact. If anyone wants to offer any info when would be optimum times for profitable speculations for me, please post. If your methodology proves correct rewards will happen if I exercise action. We will communicate by PM or feel free to post. I love to experimnt with anykind of methodology for proff it works with my life objectives with any kind of speculations.

To form any kind of personal opinion, I would definitely have to see it taken out of the theoretical/descriptive and more into the practical. ie. with at least one case example, even a cherry-picked one would be better than none, in this case

Several PD examples can be looked at on the website of Giuseppe Bezza
http://www.cieloeterra.it/testi.html#stelle
Using Chrome, Right-click to translate in English
In the section Example of Parents, you will find 3 cases on Death of a princess Diana, her driver and Napoleon Bonaparte.

Another interesting article is 'Of the division of the twelve houses'in the section Aspects-Houses
where he says...
" A house is nothing more than the space that a star travels and illuminates from the point of its entry into the house itself to the point of its exit. Therefore, the quantity of that house must be taken from these points and for the same reason the quantity of the three houses between the rising and the culminating must be assumed from the point of rising and the passage to the meridian, I mean the entrance and the exit of the stars from the same quadrant. The preceding proposition is therefore manifest: the space of a house is that in which the star, while passing the time, launches its influences at us in conformity with the nature of that house. And this, on the other hand, the star cannot produce except while it is in that house, that is, from the point of its entry to that of its exit,"

What I understand from what he says is that the entrance of a planet in a House signals the beginning of an influence in a particular area of our life. And this influence will last until it exits the House. Similar to the Ingress of a planet in a Sign.
Now, how many times in your life did you have Mars crossing your 3rd House by transit? Say you have Mars by PD entering or in your 3rd House, this changes the transit. And this is where the Lords of the Year come into play. For example, your PD ASC is in Aries or Scorpio, you are in a year of a Profected Aries or Scorpio, you have the ASC in your Solar Return in Aries or Scorpio or Mars is Angular in any of these systems. This is what will make your commonplace transit of Mars in your 3rd House more significant.
Once you identify the influence, take a step back and look at your radix.
What does the 3rd House is doing in your chart? Do you have a square from Mercury to Mars? Do any of these 2 planets are connected to the 3rd House somehow?
If so, do you have a natal trine between both in which case it will be a temporary squermish with a neighbor or a brother.
If you have a square and one of the 2 is connected to the 8th House natally, this could signal a car accident or a more threatening passage in your life.
I am just making up scenarios here but you can see that a PD needs to be investigated further down the road to give you a better understanding of the overall picture.

Best to you,
Ouranos

Re: "What I understand from what he says is that the entrance of a planet in a House signals the beginning of an influence in a particular area of our life."

It could be that it is so...and makes sense; HOWEVER, in terms of topocentric primary directions, the cusps are hot spots and aspects to those cusps occur extremely often when events of the nature of the house happen.

ie. directions in this system aren't some quasi-defined "process" that takes place over some lengthy time-period, rather as distinctive events of the nature of the house, close in time to the aspect's partility

conj/opp under 0° 11' of arc
all other aspects under 0° 6' of arc

I'm not saying that a given planet doesn't have an effect the entire time it's in the house and especially so as it makes aspects, I'm merely saying that for our examination, it becomes unimportant.

When my Ascendant comes to Venus (0° 0') as I get married, it's not necessary to bring in Venus' house in order to understand what is being implied. Naturally, when Mars contacts the 3rd House cusp, we need more info in order to ascertain if this is more likely a brother being born or something negative happening with an existant Brother, etc.

In short, I'm saying that there isn't a one size fits all approach to Primary Directions, since the various types appear to operate under their own rules... and with their own expectations.

Atlantean wrote:In short, I'm saying that there isn't a one size fits all approach to Primary Directions, since the various types appear to operate under their own rules... and with their own expectations.

It is certainly true that our expectations influence what we see and what we don't. But it is a historical fact that directions (which only became known as 'primary' directions in the late 17th century, and the label only really caught on about a hundred years after that) were used in pretty much the same way by all astrologers, across cultures, for nearly two millennia. People differed to some extent with regard to calculation, which could be more or less sophisticated, but they were fairly unanimous on how to relate directions to life events. The so-called Topocentric system is a blip by comparison, and very idiosyncratic in its outlook.

When my Ascendant comes to Venus (0° 0') as I get married, it's not necessary to bring in Venus' house in order to understand what is being implied.

No, not if you already know that it happened when you were married. But if you had seen it coming ten or twenty years in advance, could you really have been sure that it would mean marriage? And to someone who was already married, or not of an age to marry, it would have to mean something else. So I agree with Lilly:

The Planets do signifie these things properly of themselves in Directions, in what Nativity soever they be, or in what part of Heaven; but accidentally, they have signification according to the nature of the Houses they are in, and are Lords of; by considering whereof, you shall finde the true intention of what is signified by the Direction.