Hi Ouranos,

Agree that all factors need to be considered; certainly nocturnal planets in a nocturnal chart are (generally speaking) apt to be more favourable. I think the other conditions relate to just how favourable they will be. As usual, context is everything

With regard to what being 'in sect' should properly mean, I am not sure that anyone actually ever used that exact phrase prior to Project Hindsight (though I may be wrong). The expressions I recall from Valens are 'of the sect' (tēs haireseōs) and 'in its own sect' (idia hairesei), both apparently meaning simply that the sect of the chart agrees with the sect of the planet. For instance, Valens says of a chart with Libra rising and the Sun and Mars both in Scorpio that Mars is 'in its own sect'.

The evolution of the more complex Arabic concept of ḥayyiz was discussed by Giuseppe Bezza in this paper a little more than a decade ago:
https://www.cultureandcosmos.org/pdfs/1 ... _Vol11.pdf

Thank you for sharing Martin,

For instance, Valens says of a chart with Libra rising and the Sun and Mars both in Scorpio that Mars is 'in its own sect'.

Yes.
Julien of Laodicée also says that
(Google and free translation)
"the evil stars turn towards good when they are in their domicile, exaltation, term or triplicity, while being consistent with their sect."
(Disquisito astronomica, published by Frank Cumont in volume IV of the Catalogus codicum astrologorum graecorum, p.99...)

Here Mars in domicile, feminine sign, In Sect (below the horizon). The additionnal best conditions would be to find Mars occidental to the Sun and free of beams. I consider the latter as an action that would be led more in the shadow, secretly, behind the scene in matters pertaining to the 2nd House with Libra rising if that applies.
But it is the Sun here which is Out of Sect. The person may feel disconnected from their inner sense of direction, experience difficulty in expressing themselves, or struggle to align with their core energy.
I see someone who would spend money to impress the gallery or would get involved with the wrong crowd or not being recognized for what he values in life. But it could very well be someone who is under the influence of a strong partner financially (Mars ruling the 7th House).

Just theorizing here.
Ouranos

Thanks for the link to Bezza's paper; looks like an interesting read.

Martin:
Thanks for clarifying,
I wasn't sure if I wanted to dive into an argument about sect.
--
I use a point scoring system when I work on charts for clients, and I also score sect.
In my scoring, I score +3 for a planet which is in sect (say Venus in a chart, in which the Sun is below the horizon), I score a +1 for a planet which agrees with a sign femininity/masculinity (say Venus in Pisces), and I score another +1 for a planet which agrees with hemisphere (say venus being opposite to the Sun in a night chart - upper hemisphere Venus).
--
Charles Obert does something similar in his book on Dignities; scoring +3 for in sect planets and -3 for out of sect planets.
Lilly didn't score sect in his point scoring system.
Schoener did score sect, giving +3 for hayz and -2 for 'contrary to hayz'.
--
A planet in Hayz, in my above definition is that Venus which I described (as one example).
Solar fire by the way has the same algorithm, implemented as the default for calculating sect (without the points, just noting such and such).
--
Schoener's definition of Hayz, in the following entry, is different than what I use.
Apparently Shcoener used the quadrant of the planet too...
And also planets being oriental/occidental, it seems like...
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/glossary/hayz
--
Thanks for the Bezza article,


An update on Britney's chart:
If we calculate the part of success, it falls smack on the MC.
Success =Asc+Jupiter-Fortune (reverse in night chart)

An update on Britney's chart:
If we calculate the part of success, it falls smack on the MC.
Success =Asc+Jupiter-Fortune (reverse in night chart)

I had noticed this - thanks for highlighting it. I think this means if Jupiter is placed on Britney's ascendant, the Lot of Fortune moves to the MC. It seems to give some insight into her fame.

Thanks.

Ed

first off i want to point out the birth chart is rated A, based on britney spears memory.... so i would be very careful with coming to any conclusions on the specific angles given this A rating ( part of success and etc)... that said, here are some other comments some might want to consider..

i love how astrologers sometimes appear more like amazing contortionist's, as opposed to astrologers!! i am not sure which poster on this thread wins the prize!! i have actually enjoyed the thread and want to thank martin for the bezza link which i read yesterday.. that would explain in part how being an astrologer today is a bit like being a linguist - specialist in language - which is what the bezza article reminded me of... it used to be one had to know math and astronomy to be an astrologer.. now they have to know how to be a linguist of archaic languages to have a chance in this domain..

so where are we with the sect here?? with moon as the sect lord, the topic of doryphory ( love that playful word) is interesting.. here is something i have grabbed off the net -
"DORUPHORIA: Spear-bearing BodyguardsDemetra George in her book Ancient Astrology in Theory and Practice, Vol.1: Assessing Planetary Condition, Chapter 52, p.501.

The general principles behind the doctrine [doruphoria] of spear-bearing bodyguards may be summarized as follows:

Planets that are strong enough to merit bodyguards must be angular, and in most cases, in the first or tenth houses.

The Sun and Moon (the planets that signify royalty; the archetypal king and queen) are the best candidates to merit having bodyguards, when they are in the first or tenth houses.

Planets in their own domicile or exaltation, when in any of the angular houses, may also be eligible to be guarded.

The bodyguards themselves ideally belong to the sect of the chart (Jupiter and Saturn in a day chart; Mars and Venus in a night chart; in some cases, the Sun and Moon may also function as bodyguards). The diurnal bodyguards rise or cast rays before the Sun; the nocturnal bodyguards follow or cast rays behind the Moon."

can it apply with moon to saturn? saturn is of the opposite sect.. my understanding is with the moon as sect lord - it can only apply to venus and mars, the other nocturnal planets...

would be good to work with a chart based off a birth certificate...

Don't forget Mercury James,
He is the LGBTQ+++ trans of the Zodiac.
He doesn't know if he is masculine or feminine.
And identified as doryphory according to the calculations of Ptolemy on AstroFox.

The Spears-bearer if you prefer!

yes, mercury is a real swinger, lol.... apparently it is the perfect planet for astrologers who don't know which way they are swinging most of the time!!

James hi,

That A time is debatable, here's the source notes on astrodatabank:

Frank Clifford quotes Barry Street of Equinox (The Astrology Shop, London), Nov 2000: "She and her mother had walked in with bodyguards et al; they cleared the shop and calculated her chart." (Most reference books give another state as her birthplace.) Robert Currey of Equinox adds that "Britney's mother filled out the birth information and the place of birth is McComb, MS not Mahon, MS. A first chart was prepared using Mahon, MS due to a misreading of her mother's handwriting and they asked for it to be corrected to McComb, Pike County, MS."

Jonathan Cainer also quotes Barry Street: "I know about her Aquarian Moon because I know her time of birth. And I know that because her mum told it to my friend Barry who runs Equinox, the astrology shop in central London. One afternoon a few years back, Britney, her mum and her sister Jamie Lynn all came to Barry's store to get their computer charts cast. Barry says she looked even more beautiful, as she stood behind his counter, than she does in her pictures. No doubt Britney's horoscope warned her of a tough time ahead. No doubt she ignored it. Certainly she didn't get into an in-depth reading of her past, present and future." [1].

Craft quotes from her mother Lynne Spears' book, Through The Storm, pg. 31-32, that Britney was born "December 2, 1981, after twenty-one hours of labor".

Craft quotes an Instagram post by Lynne Spears posted on 2 December 2018 at ISO time (UTC) 08:47:36.000Z, which reads "Happy Birthday Britney! It’s about this time of the morning you were born! I remember it well!". [2]. Spears' mother lives in Louisiana [3] which means the post likely went up at 2:47 AM CST. This calls into question the data given to Barry Street by her mother in 2000, although it may still be accurate.

Regardless, it was a good discussion.

hi dima

i always enjoy reading the source notes to astrodatabank - adb's website.. and i appreciate them offering all they do for the astro community too!

i also appreciate your posts and found this discussion very interesting to follow.. thanks for it all!

one angle that no one took up would be with houses off the part of fortune which i remember reading about in some book covering the distant past approaches to astrology... essentially they would use the part of fortune as the starting point and gauge fame and notoriety off this position as i understand it.. her pof is ruled by the sun and the sun lands in the 5th house using pof as the starting point... the other way i suppose it to consider the ascendant ruler and where it lands in the pof houses.. that would be venus in the 6th using whole signs... i am not sure if anyone who is into hellenistic type astrology looks at any of this..

cheers james