I have done some basic research and work on the astrology of Norwegian towns, and while it seems apparant that Oslo is ruled by Cancer, Taurus may be the sign of the City's exaltation. This would assume an astrology of Cancer on the IC, with Taurus rising. I am prepared to discuss this point - but I have notes in my papers from years back.

In my research of towns, corporations and organizations (or any group) the ascendant is always the sign of the nation they are born in (with the exception of some major subgroups like New York, London etc.). For Norway the nation sign would in my view be Libra (see my page at www.geocities.com/cjjohans).

Assuming the USA is ruled by Gemini, it is quite possible to assume an astrology which shows Gemini on the Midheaven, thus representing the natural sign of the USA - and with Virgo on the Ascendant. Technology and science could be recognized as a point of exaltation in terms of the USA, yes.

Virgo ruled technology until Uranus was discovered, I would not say it does so any longer. As for science now there are grand theories instead nitpicking observations.

But primarily I believe it is important to relate the occurance of an eclipse to a place through calcultions of latitude and longitude. This would be what I consider to be the basic makings of a science.

I do have that approach as well. I fix the eclipse at a certain place on Earth and see how the planets appear elsewhere at that moment. Without fixing it on a location it will occur at different times across the Earth.

Scandinavia as Libra is an idea that has to be thought through. As in contrast to Europe, ruled by Pisces, Libra is the sign of its antiscia.

However, regarding the individual countries I would have to stick with tradition - alotting Aries to Denmark, Aquarius to Sweden and Scorpio to Norway. Libra as the signifer of Norway does not stand a chance. That would be my opinion.

Regards
Andrew

Andrew J. Bevan wrote: However, regarding the individual countries I would have to stick with tradition - alotting Aries to Denmark, Aquarius to Sweden and Scorpio to Norway. Libra as the signifer of Norway does not stand a chance. That would be my opinion.

Regards
Andrew

In my approach they are not separate on a national level like Britain or France (nation is not the same as country, there is also a sense of regional consciousness that is stronger than elsewhere. They also insist on trying to understand each other in the native languages).

And Denmark does have Mars in the ascendant while one of my candidates for Norway is Sun in Scorpio (and another Sun dispositor in Aries). Sweden has Jupiter (esoteric ruler of Aquarius) and Uranus in the ascendant.

Norway has been in union with Denmark and Sweden and their languages are fairly similar. The Norwegians have for a long time had a 2nd language called 'New Norwegian' which is closer to the national dialect. The prime purpose of 'New Norwegian' is to maintain national identity, moving away from and distinguishing themselves from the Swedish and Danish languages.

Norwegians have strong traditions of marking their national day, which is May 17., and I am sure any suggestion that they are not seperate from Denmark and Sweden on a national level will not be taken favourably. Denmark and Sweden are members of the EU. Norway is not - and the Norwegian Prime Minister recently announced the EU membership would not be an issue in the foreseeable future.

Travel through Scandinavia and you will notice that Norway is very much different from Denmark and Sweden in many ways, I am sure.

Norway has been in union with Denmark and Sweden and their languages are fairly similar. The Norwegians have for a long time had a 2nd language called 'New Norwegian' which is closer to the national dialect. The prime purpose of 'New Norwegian' is to maintain national identity, moving away from and distinguishing themselves from the Swedish and Danish languages.

Some suspicion towards the concept of union of Norway based on the history of the past 600 years does not prove that they are not one nation.

Norwegians have strong traditions of marking their national day, which is May 17., and I am sure any suggestion that they are not seperate from Denmark and Sweden on a national level will not be taken favourably.

That is not relevant to me, since "nation" is not an cultural concept but a geographical one for me. And I have found what people of a country believe is their birthday as a norm is wrong.

Denmark and Sweden are members of the EU. Norway is not - and the Norwegian Prime Minister recently announced the EU membership would not be an issue in the foreseeable future.

However thay have had a common Nordic Council (which still is active) and passport-free travel long before the EU.

Travel through Scandinavia and you will notice that Norway is very much different from Denmark and Sweden in many ways, I am sure.

[/quote]

I have visited all countries, and the similiarities are stronger between them when compared to other countries.

Well, I can't see any point in getting into an argument over this. I'm all open for new discoveries. It you can give substance to your theories and put it to some good practical use, I wish you good luck with your research.

"Andrew J. Bevan"]Well, I can't see any point in getting into an argument over this. I'm all open for new discoveries. It you can give substance to your theories and put it to some good practical use, I wish you good luck with your research.

Well I believe I have enough substance to justify the charts on my web page. It occured to me the reason the people of a country usually get their birthday wrong may be because they have no emotional association whatsoever with the moment as they came into existence then. However they can relate emotionally to subsequent resolutions, declarations etc.

For clarification?s sake, the rulerships proposed by CJ are primarily from Alice Bailey?s esoteric astrology.

Admittedly, I am not a fan of Bailey?s. I could never reconcile her racism and ethnic cleansing recipes with assumed spirituality.

Christina

This appears to be an attempt to discredit an astrological method by some distorted inference. I state quite clearly my sources on my web page. Also I don't recognize any such "recipes". Here are some quotes about the subject matter (written in the 40s-50s):
" they are ready to tell other nations how to handle their problems but as yet evidence no ability to handle their own, as witness the treatment of the American Negroes and the withholding of equal freedom and opportunity from them."
"In the United States there is isolation, the persecution of such minorities as the Negro race and an ignorant and arrogant nationalism, voiced by some Senators and Representatives with their racial hatreds, their separate attitudes and their unsound political methods".
"The innate endowment of the Negro is very rich in content. He is creative, artistic and capable of the highest mental development when taught and trained - as capable as is the white man; this has been proved again and again by the artists and the scientists who have come out of the Negro race and by the fact of their aspirations and their ambitions."
"The responsibility of the non-Jews, in the light of humanitarian demand, is vital; the record of the persecution of the Jews is a grievous and ghastly story, only paralleled by the Jewish treatment of their enemies, as related in The Old Testament. The fate of the Jews in the world war is a terrible tale of cruelty, torture and wholesale murder and the treatment of the Jews down the ages is one of the blackest chapters in human history. For it there is no excuse or condonation, and right thinking people everywhere are aware of this and are eagerly demanding that these persecutions end."
"To sum up, the Jew has set up an ancient pattern of living within other nations; as a citizen with all the rights of citizenship, he has built up a wall of taboos, of habits and of religious observances which separate him off from his environment and make him non-assimilable. These must go, and he must become a citizen not only in name but in fact."
From a different but similar context "This general statement is often untrue where the individual Jew is concerned. There are Jews in every nation and locality who are deeply loved by all who know them whether Jew or Gentile, who are respected by all around them, who are sought after and valued."

CJ,

The following words of Alice Bailey were posted by you ? and yet you say she is not proposing ethnic cleansing. I suggest a re-read ? and I suggest this in all sincerity. Bailey is clever in how she disguises it, plus her publishers of late have edited out much that is prejudicial or inflammatory (or would reduce book sales, imo) such that many readers are left uninformed. However, her more extreme quotes are in the earlier publications, which can be found by anyone in search of the truth. For now I will use your Bailey quote because there is no question of its validity (and I applaud your objectivity in including it):

"To sum up, the Jew has set up an ancient pattern of living within other nations; as a citizen with all the rights of citizenship, he has built up a wall of taboos, of habits and of religious observances which separate him off from his environment and make him non-assimilable. These must go, and he must become a citizen not only in name but in fact."

Bailey tells us that Jewish ?religious observances? ?must go?, their cultural customs and habits ?must go?. She is telling them to drop all things Jewish and assimilate with the people around them. Who are these people around them? The large majority are Christian. Basically she is telling Jews to erase all things Jewish.

This is a recipe for ethnic cleansing ? and one of her milder quotes. Dozens more exist which are increasingly severe whereby she insists Jews must intermarry until all trace of Jewish-ness is gone (erase themselves from the planet, breed them out). AND she says peace on earth can only be achieved if Jews follow her advice.

Yes, Bailey claims to be against using physical violence in the form of outright slaughter. Instead, she advises physical and cultural elimination but by a more peaceful method. Peaceful indeed! To my mind it is violent and corrupt in thought. I consider her references linking ?sameness as assimilation? to good citizenship to be subversive and devoid of humanity.

IMO, peace is achieved through tolerance of differences, as is good citizenship. Tolerance perpetuates freedom and real freedom requires strength and courage. In the extreme it means having an opinion or belief that you are willing to die defending and the strength to restrain oneself from bashing your best friend or neighbor for having an opposing view (or from breeding them out). Peace is easy when everyone agrees or is the same.

Some other quotes from Bailey where she describes Jews as alien (non-human) and justifies the holocaust as well deserved karma: ?The Jews are the reincarnation of spiritual failures or residues from another planet... The Jew represents materialism, cruelty and a spiritual conservatism, under the domination of the separative, selfish mind?? From 1949: ? Today the law of racial karma is working and the Jews are paying the price [for evil done in past lives], factually and symbolically ...? ?Release from the present situation will come when the Jew forgets that he is a Jew.... The Jewish problem will be solved by intermarriage; that of the Negro will not. This will mean concession and compromise on the part of the orthodox Jews -- not the concession of expediency but the concession of conviction.? (Esoteric Healing, p. 267.)

All in all, I cannot reconcile Bailey?s esoteric astrology with my beliefs of tolerance and freedom. But then I am sure there are many who cannot reconcile astrology (of any sort) with their beliefs! As long as civil liberties are not violated, believers and non-believers can protest, boycott, shout opposing views at each other loudly from the rooftops, debate, educate ? and I choose all these methods when opportunity arises. Bailey is referred to as the ?mother of the new age? and, sadly through no fault of their own, many of her followers are unaware of her small-minded bigotry.

Christina

Yes, Bailey claims to be against using physical violence in the form of outright slaughter. Instead, she advises physical and cultural elimination but by a more peaceful method. Peaceful indeed! To my mind it is violent and corrupt in thought. I consider her references linking ?sameness as assimilation? to good citizenship to be subversive and devoid of humanity.

I disagree with this narrow view. The only context for this is the "Jewish problem" specifically (Jews are also mentioned as a whole fewer times than blacks), so I do not agree that there is some general "racism" or bigotry. As for the Jews they are special in that their religion states they are the Chosen People above all others and should stay apart. Suppose that is untrue? Their religion is also one of the few remaining purely tribal religions in the world. And reading the Old Testament it's easy to get the impression there is no afterlife, so "materialism" is not far-fetched either (there was in fact a Jewish sect the Sadducees propounding this about the time of Jesus). As I see it Bailey's gripe is with their religion, the motive may be to save them from their outdated beliefs. I myself believe in an objective truth, and that includes the possibility that some religions are more wrong than others. (Also I don't believe Bailey can be said to favor Christianity either, as you said yourself by some regarded as influencing New Age which hardline Christians are hostile to. I won't include all the quotes about Christianity now as this goes beyond this forum.)

All in all, I cannot reconcile Bailey?s esoteric astrology with my beliefs of tolerance and freedom. But then I am sure there are many who cannot reconcile astrology (of any sort) with their beliefs! As long as civil liberties are not violated, believers and non-believers can protest, boycott, shout opposing views at each other loudly from the rooftops, debate, educate ? and I choose all these methods when opportunity arises.

Well you seem to treat astrology as a belief rather than a science. That suggests you have the 6th ray using Bailey's terminology prominent in your personality. I am able to search all the Bailey so I know probably more than you think about them. However than
I do not consider myself a Bailey believer or adherent, initially I was skeptic until it came to make sense. That doesn't mean I now accept everything at face value, that's why I have also rectified my charts as much as possible.

Well you seem to treat astrology as a belief rather than a science.

I did not specify either preference.

It is possible that I introduced some confusion by not defining my terminology. I will attempt to rectify. Tolerance does not mean agreement or disagreement, thus?

As for the Jews they are special in that their religion states they are the Chosen People above all others and should stay apart. Suppose that is untrue?

?it does not matter if their religious beliefs are untrue or true. Tolerance allows all people freedom to think their own thoughts, express their thoughts and live those thoughts as they choose. Others are equally free to agree or disagree. All have freedom to exist.

As I see it Bailey's gripe is with their religion, the motive may be to save them from their outdated beliefs.

Maybe so, she may think herself helpful. Yet history has proven that many an oppressor came disguised as savior/liberator. Disagreement is one thing, censorship is another. Suggesting a people breed themselves out is a denial of their freedom to exist. It censors them from existence and is intolerant and bigoted. My objection is to any astrology that seeks to justify the elimination of an entire people?s very existence simply because its author doesn't like those people?s thoughts, religious beliefs, customs, culture, habits and/or way of life.

Christina