PS rather than editing I am adding some after thoughts.

I have Mars 18 Aq to Merc 3 Pisces. So no conjunction other than a seperating one.

Fixed Stars.

Moon applying to Algol.

POF ?

When Mars reaches the Dsc that may mean exposure but still Mars will go thru 6th.

Pluto on the turned Mc.

Publicly sinsiter in the way that I am "sinister" in the true sense of the world.

There is certainly a lot more to this.

Something very odd between these two people.

I think disdain from one to the other may have led to the attack. Sun just moved out of Pisces and has been in the 12th house for some time.

I finished with this.

Sorry more people didn't have a go at judging the chart.

It's a great way to learn.

Moon applying to Algol.

Not close enough ? the Moon is conjunct Hamal, which is Mars-Saturn in nature and is association with violence, danger, and head injuries. Venus is conjunct Sheraton, another Mars-Saturn violent one.

See http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aries_myth.html

Since you can?t influence this situation in any way, perhaps the best thing you can do with this chart is just aim to understand it as best you can and follow it against events as they unfold. Like you say, it is all a good way to learn.

I think this was all a real terrible mistake.

It was about betting and he accused the 10th house figure of his "children" of cheating for betting gains.

He simply lost it and insults flew including one's to do with faith/ beliefs.

An argument ensued because of his disdain and the 10th house figure being accused again of incorrect behaviour flipped and attacked him.

It is simply unbelievable.

It is the worst possible tragedy imaginable.

PS Can't get the exact how.

I don't have time myself, at the moment, but it would probably be worth looking at the event charts.

Mir's statement added that there would be a coroner's inquest and, in keeping with Jamaican law, an autopsy to determine the cause of death. Woolmer, a diabetic, was found unconscious on his hotel-room floor at around 10.45am after team officials grew concerned that they had not seen him since the previous evening. Mir said he had blood on him and there was vomit on the walls.

Karl Angell, director of communication for the Jamaica Constabulary Force, said Woolmer was pronounced dead by doctors at the University Hospital of the West Indies in Kingston, where he had been rushed to, at 12.14pm on Sunday.

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/wc2007/ ... 85953.html

I'll have to leave Event charts to another day.

I don't understand the concept of timing.

Looking forward to learning though.

I've done several other chart related to this, withstanding Deb's advice becasue I don't know the details to develop the original further, looks like Fixed Stars are the next thing to conquer.

And only a simple chart recently done I reckon the murder is already in the reach of his enemies (the authorities) and will actually be formally accussed when Jupiter forms a square to Mercury.

Jup is the authorities and Merc the man. Or even earlier when the Moon reaches oppostion to Jup.

The later is about 15.00 tomorrow and the former about the beginning of April.

He's Merc in Pisces in 6th so that doesn't bode well for him.

Moon in 10th so again it suggests a outwardly facing figure.

Unless Jup is Sag is so benevolent that they let him slip throug their hands.

Would have thought it would represent functioning police.

Will the murderer be caught? 17.17pm today Genolhac.

I really think I should stop because I'm very new to this and I'm not looking forward to hearing the laughter ringing across the channel into my sensitive ears.

The killer.

OK. I'm not changing my judgement.

if I'm wrong thru haste then I'll learn from that.

I suppose in this Horary I am running against the publication of the "real" situation.

That is why I drew a halt yesterday.

I'd like to say that at the time of the initial Query I simply could not believe in foul play and that is what probably stimulated the query.

Logic said impossible. Guts said "Could it be?"

Having learnt a little more it looks less likely that they will catch the killer soon although he might become know.

They are not the same thing.

If turn the original chart you get Sun just in 12th. The hidden place.

What worries more than anything is Pluto on the MC.

Pluto the God who could walk unseen.

You'v also got Uri on the cusp of 12th.

Modern hidden techniques.

Was the killer an uncover policeman or someone of high rank but evil in mind?

A sort of double agent because of the effect of Sun in 12th and Pluto's square from MC.

If you agree I'll phone it thru to "The job of piecing together Woolmer's final hours falls to Mark Shields, the former Scotland Yard chief superintendent, who is heading the murder investigation."

What is worrying is the role Jupiter is playing.

Conter acting Saturn's evil and fueling Pluto.

And i've just noted the node.

It's very finely balanced.

I really think we should do something.

It's a real moment of Good v Evil.

At this stage Evil looks like it will win.

Further, the 11th house of the turned chart is "full" of planets.

They all are in some way afflicted by Saturn;

How would we find out what this Satrun represents?

It is clearly this illegal betting.

It also sort of reflects this theme about evil children.

The killers evil children.

Fixed Stars may save the day.

A long day ahead learning about them.

Really are we going to do something to solve this or just "Watch".

If somebody verifies my theory I'll phone thru the ideas.

Poor man's dead and we have the skills to help track down the killer and are we going to do nothing?

That would be double Yikkes!!!!

Yikkes,

I really think that you'd be advised to step back and gain some perspective on this chart. You say yourself that you're new to horary and yet you're chosing to ignore the advice you've been given by more experienced members of the forum.

are we going to do nothing?

Firstly, no one is obliged to answer any post. Baiting other members won't gain you the sort of response that you want. It's offensive to imply that people here don't care and can't be bothered. If you were fully confident in your own judgment, you wouldn't need to seek approval here. As you aren't, you should question whether you would be wise to take any action.

If you want to contact the police, that's obviously your decision. However, I don't believe it will achieve much if you do. You haven't included anything in your analyses that isn't apparent from media reports.

OK. I'm not changing my judgement.

Then there's no point in having a discussion about this.

Anyone here can "verify" your theory if they wish. But this is a public forum filled with people you don't know and you have no idea of their level of experience.

The tone your posts have taken may be seen as highly offensive by members of the forum. Death isn't something to be greeted with glee, and you have no idea who is reading on the forum and what their personal circumstances are.

This is a forum to discuss astrology. It isn't a place to unite and catch the bad people.

Please, take some time out. Step back from the chart and then return to it later when refreshed if you wish. I'm sure that you will see it much more clearly if you do so.

Best,

Kim

Thanks for you comments.

They seem VERY one sided.

Advice I received was that the chart was not valid.

Followed by Ya Bo - shout him down.

It seemed to be "spot on".

I was asked if I was sticking by my judgement.

Yes.

Prove me wrong. I'll learn from my mistakes.

There is no point in making judgements and then changing them especially with information coming from other sources.

I'm hoping I'll recieve some other input so I can learn.

Glee sorry NO.

I suggested juicy because I could relate personally to the stress of managing sports teams and trying to withstand that stress.

At the time I could in no way accept his death was from anything other than stress.

It's nonsense to suggest that other's will have sensibilities.

There are as many sensibilities as there are days.

When will I meet my new love? Oh please.

Appauled yes.

If I felt that I had a clear view of who this Killer was I certainly would get that information to the police.

Am I in a majority of one?

Apart from Deb's input from which I have learned a lot I just seemed to be mocked for saying that the question came from a Psychic source.

You talk of sensibilities.

Additionally, I have certainly learned to try not to back up hunches by finding facts but as I am intuitive thinker that is hard.

I'm dissappointed. I think we came close to something important.

Apart from Deb's considerable input and comments about the mentality of judging nothing.

It's amazing what you learn if people chip in observations.

Finally what's the point of doing a chart if you don't see it thru to the conclusion?

I will say though that this a very informed forum and I do not wish to come along and disrupt it.

Deb has put a lot of work into creating a knowledgeable place.

I very much respected that.

Hamish

Yikkes,

I'm not here to prove anything. As Deborah has participated in the discussion, I?m moderating this thread. If you have a problem with that, it can be discussed with myself or any of the other moderators privately.

Deb has put a lot of work into creating a knowledgeable place.
That should be respected.

Indeed. That is precisely what I am asking you to do.

Please reconsider my post to you and your response.

Kim

Ok I?ll go thru it all again and lay out my thinking as I go along.

If I have offended or upset anybody so far then I didn?t mean to but time was of the essence.

Hindsight is a great friend and doubly so in Horary but I was trying to beat the newspapers.

Maybe somebody will correct my mistakes or/and suggest areas that could be developed/ read up on.

Don?t know how to do timing at all. What are the factors to look at? Is it to do with width of orb as well as house.

I know house represents speed for some queries.

Anyway? Here is the reworked query. Hopefully covering everything.

(Is it possible that) Was he murdered? (because I can?t believe it)

Genolhac 21.Mars.07 19.13pm

House system placidus.

To do a Horary I need to follow these steps.

1/ Ensure the question is valid/ Understood/ felt
2/ Look generally at the chart.
3/ Assign the signifactors and Note their houses
4/ Consider their condition in simple terms
5/ See if there is any link between them

6/ Look for applying and separating aspects between Significators also looking at timings.
7/Consider reciprocation between significant planets
8/ Consider their houses more significantly

9/ Consider outer planets and more significant Fixed Stars.

10/Turn the chart and repeat.

1/ So I raised the Query on behave of the forces of Good. It was keenly felt and after 20 minutes of reflection it was accepted.

((Note In fact this is completely untrue. There is no truth in this at all. I understood that it was important to get the exact time of a chart but I felt that if a chart "comes" to you from a Higher Source then you should contemplate it for a while.

Actualy I only thought that because of what others have said.

but now I think getting the exact time will produce really sharp judgements.

So thanks Christina for getting me back to trusting my own judgement./ end of edit))

2/ It is a night chart. No signs are incepted. Saturn is singleton and retrograde. Jupiter is in Sag. Sun is on the Dsc.

3/ - 8/ The ?Querant?/ 1st house then is therefore the deceased.
Libra is rising at 4?39?. No planets in 1st house to add essence.

Venus 4?38? is in Taurus in 8th. Venus is in dignity. Good shape. As it?s a question involving death we might say that it was a good death. I know soldiers ask for a quick clean death if they are going to die.

Classically Venus receives a conjunction from Moon. Also a sextrine (60) from Mercury but nothing else.

Mercury is in detriment in Pisces in 5th. In this case Venus is moving quicker than Mercury (separating) so there had been some sort of communication about 5th house matters that were under a positive aspect but involving a damaged Mercury.

Moving on the Moon a co-signifactor of the ?Querant? is also in Taurus 8?05? in 8th.
So this confirms if we still weren?t sure that the chart relates to a dead ?querant?.

The Moon classically aspects Venus separating, Mercury separating 60, and Mars applying square. Not forgetting an applying Square.

They are at the edge of the orbs. What could that mean? Does it mean that the killer and the deceased spent a bit of time together?

The Moon is in exaltation and triplicity in Taurus. So the death again may have been a good death. A clean death. I don?t wish to be insensitive.

It has been written that a nocturnal Moon in 8th is bad news even if rejocing in 8th.

Taurus rules neck and is just on the cusp of the 8th. So death involved the neck.

Mercury?s separating aspect again suggests a communication that was troubled but intended to be positive.

Mars is applying a square to the Moon but not Venus. Saturn is also applying retro and in my calculation the square Moon nearly exactly within 5?.

Does this suggest that the near full force of Malefics was applied in the killing?

If we consider a little about Mars and Saturn. Saturn is in the worst condition by far.

I would have thought there would be some sort of reciprocation between Saturn and Mars. Mars likes Leo though I see no dignity.

What more can we add.

Mars is not well placed in 5th. Suggests poorly mannered ?children?.

Mars in Aquarius? Modern attack. Sudden. Unemotive.

Saturn in Leo retrograde so extreme restriction. Frustrated. Seething Ego driven.

There is however no link between Mercury and the Malefic except the triplicity of reception. So there is a link.

Does this mean a hidden or inferred link between the two? It?s an important link but one I don?t know how to explain.

((OK I think that?s about it except the way that Saturn and Mars are in the 5th and 11th. I am not sure what one is allowed to infer from that.

I?d be tempted to say that pulls in or activates issues related to those houses as background.

I wonder if somebody could answer that. It?s a hangover I have from modern techniques.

Is it possible to pull in 5th / 11th house rulerships? That would make the attacking energy coming from false associates and badly behaved ?children? figures.

He?d have had plenty of associates as cricket is a people heavy sport and as a coach had players to look after.))

As it is a very negative situation the Malefics are in play.

What about Jupiter and the Sun.

Jupiter applies a trine just after Saturn and Mars to the Moon. Jupiter is incredibly well placed influencing Saturn and Mars in beneficial aspects.

Would suggest that the Malefic energies were tempered.

Sag bringing in a spiritual element from ?brothers? after the attack.

Sun on the Dsc is always a bad sign eventhough it does not make any classic aspects.

Apart from the reciprocations I have noted I can?t see any more. Are there anymore?

Maybe Leo?s position opposite Aquarius allows some sort of reciprication between Saturn and Mars. I?d say yes.

It?s hard to call this. Hindsight is useful but lefthanders learn by following examples not by applying rules. This is why this is a very useful exercise for me.




9/ Now we?d look at more ?radical? approaches (what is a radical chart?).

I?d point out that Taurus is opposite it?s natural home. Suggest that there is disfunction all round for this poor man. He was in opposition to the normal way of things?

Outer plants nothing particular;

Neptune making tight aspects to Saturn and Mars.

OK Fixed Stars. Using Deb?s list of essential ones;

I suppose I?m just looking for aspects to the main planetary signifiers for malefic aspects.

Orbs are usually 1.5. Go with 2 today.

Nothing in Aries.

Mesartim (and Sharatan) separating conjunction with Venus. Saturn / Mars influence.

Caph and Schedar applying conjunct to Venus.

beauty spoilt by vanity and greed.

Violence before death?

Hamal separating conjunction with Moon. Mars/ Saturn.

Its influence is generally unfortunate and it is associated with violence, danger, and head injuries before death.

Both suggest something negative had happened before the attack.

Rucha making a square to Saturn and Mars

beauty spoilt by vanity and greed.


Continue to check squares and oppostion to Venus and Moon.

My feeling in this chart is that Venus has been afflicted by the Moon.

Praesepe, North and South Asellus, applying square Moon. I understand that a luminary can be seen as malefic with Fixed Stars.

associated with weakness, blindness and sickness, especially when the luminaries or malefics fall upon them.

Lilly noted a great danger of accidents, burns, violent death, afflicted eyesight and lawsuits when the Sun was directed to these two last stars.

Syrma separating opposition Venus

and being 'under the skirt of the Virgin' is often linked to occult sciences, secret wisdom, and a sharp, penetrating mind that has the ability to extract hidden truths.

Khambalia separating opposite Moon

He states that it causes swift violence, unreliability, changeability and an argumentative nature',

(Ancha separating square to Venus

Geidi separating square to Venus)

Dabih separating square to Venus

but if afflicted it causes criticism, suspicion, problems with friends and lovers, and the failure to realise ambitions. (not afflicted)

(Oculus applying square to Venus)

So some clear indications to Violence.

Now to check Saturn and Mars


Algenubi separating conjunction to Saturn

marks the mouth of the Lion. Ptolemy listed its influence as like Saturn and Mars and it is reported to confer bombastic, arrogant and cruel qualities, with a bold and daring nature.

Mars would be out of orb for this.

Mars applying conjunct to Castra, in the heart and belly respectively, are stars with disagreeable natures, whose prominency indicates malevolence and destructiveness. Robson states of Armus "It gives disagreeableness, contemptibleness, instability, shamelessness, nagging and a troublesome and contentious nature". Of Castra he says "malevolence, destructiveness, and an uncontrollable temper".

I suppose Fixed Stars also have houses they like or dislike.

Worth checking the Sun too.

Nothing.

So although I really don?t know whether this is a lot of a little we can see plenty of violence and arguments associated to the Moon.

Again do we use the same orbs with all planets to Fixed Stars?


10/ Turn the chart.

First question is that was it an open enemy or a secret enemy. Does an open enemy only mean somebody you know is causing you problems and a closed one who you know you have problems but you don?t know who.

If he didn?t see his attacker would that mean a secret enemy?

Secret enemy is Gemini on 12th. Mercury in detriment but only making a separating sextile to Venus / Moon.

Working backwards checking Fixed Stars aspecting Mercury.

Separating square Graffias According to Ptolemy it is of the nature of Mars and Saturn and it is mentioned by Robson as causing 'extreme malevolence, mercilessness, fiendishness, repulsiveness, malice, theft, crime, pestilence and contagious diseases'.

Applying square Isidis, a 2nd magnitude star near the right claw, is also attributed a nature like Mars and Saturn. This star appears to bestow the same destructive qualities as Antares and Graffias, but with few of the possible benefits. It is associated with imprisonment and shame, disgrace and assaults.

Could Mercury make an attack? In this state. I doubt it.

So an open enemy. Somebody he knew was against him.

Aries ruled by Mars afflicted by Saturn. So a nasty piece of work but then there would have been a fight.

Capricorn on 10th so a leading figure.

What about Sun in 12th;

Could this mean he was hiding. Don?t think so.

Hamish

Prove me wrong. I'll learn from my mistakes.

Hamish

Hamish,

No one has to be proven wrong to learn something.
You can learn from sugestions as well

I must say your writing style is very different and tends to overshadow the astrology in the discussion.

Pankaj

Hello Yikkes,

Your original post question time and date said:

18.53pm Genolhac 21.03.07

Your latest post shows time as 20 minutes later:

Genolhac 21.Mars.07 19.13pm

Earlier you said that you changed the time of your original question and proceeded, in your post, to delineate the chart a second time.

I progressed the chart by 20 mins

Add 20mins to the Insight time to get a realler time.

That is the time it would have taken me to think thru whether I was just being totally ridiculous. Then I either would have accepted the question or forgotten about it.

Now you are presenting the time to forum members as if it happened that way.

So I raised the Query on behave of the forces of Good. It was keenly felt and after 20 minutes of reflection it was accepted.

This sounds like fantasy. According to your other posts, it was actually two days later that you decided to advance the time 20 minutes to include an imaginary time of reflection which did not actually occur.

Are you aware that you are making up astrology rules that do not exist? Astrologers do not go back days later and change the time of the question to what they think it ought to have been. The time of the question is the time of the question. This is how horary works ? it is also the beauty of horary and of the heavens.

I offer this info only as a suggestion to save you wasting your time on an invalid chart (meaning the latter time) nor waste forum members? time with ?fantasy times?. You may or may not have a valid chart with the original time. However, re-inventing the time is completely outside the perogative of traditional astrology.

Astrology is exciting, and most astrologers are passionate about it. You seem to share these ebullient qualities. You have put a lot of time and energy into this chart. Many a beginner gets caught up in the excitement and exiliration of the stars and - off to the races - ends up spinning their wheels over and over in a hurry getting nowhere. There is no fast track to learning astrology.

The planet Mercury is generally understood to be the significator of astrology. Recall that Mercury is also the ?trickster?. IMO, the tricks guide us in fine tuning our rational mind, otherwise we would continue in our mistakes. Ultimately, astrology is sobering. It is fantastic, but it is not fantasy. Beginners are advised to be careful of trickery.

Kim gave you excellent advice ? slow down, let it breathe.

Regards,
Christina