Hi Tom,

First, a belated Aloha (from the other thread where we all were discussing gender roles ? some of which applies here).

I appreciate the info you shared on David Von Drehle?s "raging narcissism" and self absorption from Time magazine. It certainly put a good deal into perspective for me, as in it ?got my eye back on the ball? so to speak. Prior to your posts, I had been looking at the gunman?s chart using Dr. Michael Welner?s assertions that paranoid schizophrenics only become dangerous when they tie their masculinity/self identity to destruction (Welner is professor forensic psychiatry at New York University, views aired on CNN).

Narcissism in its extreme added to masculinity/self identity tied to destruction makes more sense to me.

In addition, Dr. Welner says ?There is an important element to mass shooters of being immortal. And the way to get immortal through guns as a display of power and masculinity is a very important identification of identity for a person who's failed.? These types of shooters are generally not women because society?s models for femininity and feminine gender roles do not relate to feats of power or destruction. "Lethality speaks to the shooter's level of organization."

Since the gunman was particularly lethal we would also look for ability to pre-meditate, plan, organize and effect follow-through, along with desire for immortality, self identity/masculinity tied to destruction, grandiose fantasy/showmanship and the narcissism indicators that Tom posted

If anyone wants to do some astrology with this, then I suggest looking for indications of exreme narcissism, self pity, and other symptoms of self absorption, if those can be found. Freud argued that narcissism in adults was a result of the refusal to grow up. That might be another clue. Babies are completely self absorbed (and understandably so). We're expected to grow out of that. What might prevent that development?.

Up-thread Leelu posted an image of the gunman?s noon birth chart (middle wheel of tri-wheel for event ? thank you Leelu!). If anyone is interested in a sunrise chart then 7:50 am puts the Sun on the Ascendant in Seoul, South Korea. At sunrise, Saturn is conjunct the MC. Since we are working without a birth time, parans might be helpful. Anyone?

Using the Sun as one of the primary indicators for self identity, the gunman?s Sun is applying to square a strong Mars (exalt Lord) with essential dignity in Scorpio with reception (out of sign). Sun is also received by Saturn (domicile Lord) in Scorpio by sextile (organization). The Sun square Mars (which is partile conj Pluto) does point to a self-identity and masculinity linked to the malefics (destruction) along with rage (suppressed by Mars applying to Saturn conjunction = resentments build up). Possibly a "raging narcissism" indicator. The only other aspect to the Sun is an opposition from the Moon in Cancer.

Excessive, grandiose fantasy and showmanship would be the conjunction of Venus (show), South Node and Jupiter in Sagittarius with Mercury out of sign conj Jupiter (3rd planet in domicile). Mercury is slow, having stationed direct a week earlier. Uranus and Neptune are in the Sag conj as well. The Mercury, Jupiter, Neptune conj is sextile Mars (again organization, grand plan, acting out fantasy).

I'm sure there is much more here, even without a time. Tom, I'm hoping you'll reconsider and post the astrology you mentioned - I could use some more learning leaps

Christina

Tom,

TS had a very lengthy non astrological remark and I followed with same.

Tom, my response to Granny was still in context of the astrology already mentioned for the event chart and therefore post preceding yours only briefly echoed earlier observations, ie.

"That also appears reflective of the grand trine in the event chart.
At some point in time there's a requirement to pass beyond Mars, and come to terms with Saturn."

As was mentioned Mars was lord of 7th, Scorpio - the opposition, him - and it has attributions of the retaliatory quality of revenge. Mars disposited by Jupiter rx, the "predatory martyrdom" mentioned.

Furthermore this is quite beside the point.

Not really. Not unless it's desired to keep his reality that's been reported out of the astrological considerations of this event, yet it was him and his reality that is at the centre of this turn of events.

Bullying is when a person is "exposed, repeatedly and over time, to negative actions on the part of one or more other persons ... when a person intentionally inflicts injury or discomfort upon another person, through physical contact, through words or in other ways."

It's reported about 85% of bullying victims suffer long term psychological damage and stress related disease later in their lives, and it's been shown that those (child or adult) who are persistently subjected to abusive behaviour can lead to suicide.

There have been numerous examples of people dying as a result of bullying - victims of bullying either committing suicide, or being killed by their bullies, or other people killed by victims of bullying.

He was bullied over an extended period of time according to reports and as events indicate became the ultimate bully.

Length of time - duration over which bullying occurs - is a factor, and time is a cumulative process, eg. fear turns to anger, anger turns to hatred - actions arising from anger also a negative manifestation of Mars. And Mars has a lot to do with offense/defense ... the fight/flight instinct.


You keep referencing blame - blame is an accusation. Blame's also reflected by Jupiter rx and the 12th house Mercury of the event chart.
Responsibility - he'd abdicated his, the Saturn rx in detriment is a reflection of a dimension of him ... and he's not around to take responsibility for his actions.

However, that Saturn rx in the event chart I think also tells us something about those in positions of authority, and the nature and quality of their actions leading up to and at the time of the event.

The guy made a videotape and sent it to a major media outlet.

Yes, he made a videotape that he had no intention of seeing broadcast - in addition to misaddressing it. It largely aired additional venting of his spleen.

And if his motive was more than that arising from an accumulation and escalation of anger and resentment that culminated in his seeking revenge, he didn't appear to articulate it. He largely blamed.

"If you're out for revenge, you pick and choose your target."

He did. He targeted the school he attended and the students and teachers of that school ... it was largely during his years at school where he's reported to have experienced bullying, the other area mentioned where it had occurred was at a church group.

Lacking a target he wouldn't for example have locked the teachers and students of his school in, keeping them prisoner to vent his rage ... he didn't for instance just sit in a park somewhere firing off random shots at passers-by.

Once we rationalize his actions we are making excuses for him

I haven't yet seen anyone here justifying his actions.

--Please explain how what someone feels/senses is irrelevant to their actions, to how they behave--.
Tom: Misundestood. It's irrelevant to me.

To be clear, you wrote: "any sense of attack is therefore quite irrelevant to his actions."

A "sense" of being under attack, or the sensing of any other thing, involves a person's senses.
And what someone senses goes directly towards their behaviour and actions ... whether it's the firing of ideas, words, or bullets.

In astrology you already know what planets are attributed the various senses, and if senses are irrelevant then it would seem to suggest so's the astrology ... so why call to focus on the astrology?

You've repeated the assertions of narcissm - a psychological snapshot and something which awaits clarification in context of this event and person ... but I see little point in mentioning narcissim if his senses you see as irrelevant, and little point attempting to focus others on the astrology if you're not going to elaborate on that dimension in context of this event.

This is again, what seems to be missed by media outlets everywhere. This is again the point of the forest and trees analogy.

Sorry Tom, your comments here make little sense to me in context of the quote grabbed or the link prev. given.

But you've gone on to focus on blame ... we're already aware of who perpetrated this event.

There was also a cumulative sequence of events where others whom he came into contact with in positions of authority were presented with opportunities ... Saturn was retrograde, and also offers an indication as to how well they were listening, attentive.

Now that Saturn's shifted directions the authorities will probably proceed forward to confront matters raised by Jupiter rx as relates to that event, potentially looking at where procedures may be tightened up.

With Jupiter rx, the blame game you've alluded to will probably also continue.

And perhaps the approaching Mars conjunction of Uranus may convey an opportunity for some sort of revelation where Saturn's concerned.

The one consistent characteristic in all of these is narcissism

How's that - some clarity about the narcissim you're defining in relation to this event and person would be helpful (narcissism being something which everyone according to its psychological definition has to differing degrees).

There's significant differences in the actions demonstrated by Cho compared to the other two, so the liberal application of 'narcisim' does appear as something of a broad generalization fixated on a single idea.

and it is, for the most part being ignored.

Probably because as is indicated in the event chart there was a redirection of restrictions experienced (Saturn rx) involving the dimension of "self love" which is probably also suggestive as to why it's being ignored.

In the event chart, 12th house Sun disposits a debilitated Saturn, and that Sun intercepted (in Placidus houses, not in other constructs) in an area ruled by Mars and disposited by Mars - the loose canon - is at least to me not primarily about "self love" (narcism).

Instead more about the negative dimension of Mars - which supplants the Sun, and Mars in traditional context is disposited by Jupiter rx ... in modern context by Neptune (either way, suggestive of the added level of disillusion/delusion).

"Instead we hear how tough they had it ..."

The actions of a person aren't separate from the person who commits them, and the person is not separate from the life they've led, for better or worse.

" ..and why we should feel compassion for them"

What have you been reading? I haven't seen (yet) anything written about this event telling other people how they should or shouldn't feel.

Therefore in and of itself, "self-esteem" is wildly overrated.

(sigh) ... and I thought you were having some fun with this point as I've seen you do before.
This was precisely why I mentioned -- "healthy" self-esteem is never overrated. If it's healthy it's not rated over and above ....

"His fears are his responsibility. And his responsibility is noticeably lacking in most discussions."

Most discussions? Well in this discussion Saturn rx (responsibility) has already been touched upon, in this post and earlier - before your entry ... why are you introducing what may appear to be lacking in discussions elsewhere in this thread?

"Had some all ready to go, but this and my friend Kirk intervened. And I'm through.

Really?
That decision's unfortunate.

-----

Kirk, Christina and Labalance - you've shared really good observations on the natal on this page to keep the astrology flowing. Thank you.

Kind regards,
TS

Of course birth times using approximately 6 hour increments will all show similarities.

http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f111/ ... ology/CHO/

Bob