Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:25 am
I don't know if I understand -- does this mean if one were born Jan 1 in Melbourne, one would be a CANCER????
No.
The Sun in Capricorn in the NH does not invert to become a Sun in Cancer in the SH.
While many in Australia can probably trace their roots back to Scotland, it's not Scotland.
The Sun in its relationship to earth aligns through Capricorn whether someone's born in the NH or SH.
[On 1 Jan the Sun actually aligns through Sagittarius which is now the constellation infusing the 10th month of the year from the vernal crossing due to precession - back to this later].
By inverting the signs what occurs is that the Melbourne person's day of birth is being put back by 6 months ("back" when working on the premise that Melbourne, Australia is ahead in time calculated from Greenwich).
This inverting of the "signs" also means the celestial sphere is being inverted instead of someone's position on earth.
The day of the Sun is the position of the Sun within a month which occurs within a year before going on to consider the actual contents of that day, the adjustment of hours etc. And Melbourne is ahead of Greenwich by 10 hours, eg. 3pm on Sunday 10th in Melbourne = 5am on Sunday 10th in GMT.
At latitudes further north of the Tropics, the lunar dimension of Capricorn increases in dominance.
At latitudes south of the Tropics the solar dimension of Capricorn increases in dominance.
Every sign contains qualities of both Moon and Sun.
In terms of position in the calendar of a year (before reducing it to the actual contents of a specific day), it's like the difference between a 4th house Sun and a 10th house Sun, both in Capricorn - one shines more brightly, more publicly, the other is more behind the scenes - both are dignified.
What's inverted from NH perspective in context of the framework of months to a year commencing from the vernal crossing are the 10th & 4th houses/months ... the 10th house Sun is the NH Sun and is actually the one more behind the scenes, while the 4th house Sun is the one shining brightly and publicly in the SH.
A NH Capricorn Sun meeting a SH Capricorn is like a lunar Capricorn meeting their solar equivalent, or a Capricorn born at night meeting a Capricorn born during the day. That's before we even get to the polarity of Cancer.
But, that's what happens when the Moon is dropped from the calendar.
The lunar dimension of the sign gets obscured, as do the stars which is the frame of reference that shows earth's motion and earth's changing orientation to the celestial sphere. This changing motion of earth resulting in the wandering of the annual seasonal calendar of months that also applies to divisions of earth under the Sun.
The signs really became "land-locked" from interpretations of around the Renaissance and subsequent Gregorian reform - stuck to the immovable terrestrial/equatorial projection which is in fact in constant motion.
The order was deviated from, focus primarily upon terrestrial matters and divisions, and consequently the signs developed into the latter polarised, solar-centered, land-locked versions often encountered today which disguises earth's progression. There's much more to them than this.
One of the reasons behind the dropping of the Moon also being that observing the Moon was considered part & parcel of the less-than-well understood "pagan" practices which were frowned upon and which, aside from Dharmic, Native American, Celtic, Mayan, Australian Aboriginal etc observations, also happens to be the basis for 2 of the 3 Abrahamic faiths, ie. Judaism & Islam - luni-solar and lunar calendar. And probably Christianity too, before it's later adoption and incorporation.
The convergence between the tropical moving calendar of seasons and sidereal framework made it difficult to discern the longitude used by Ptolemy.
Western astronomers of more recent times used the tropical point of the vernal crossing, attached "Aries" to it, and reduced co-ordinates to the equatorial plane and fixed it in place, rather than leaving it as a wandering point relative to the fixed stars. Astrologers followed suit.
And things subsequently continued to spiral from there ... which was something of a culmination of adjustments and reinterpretations over a more extensive period of time.
The Nakshatras are simply the passage of the Moon in its monthly cycle.
In every chart we erect there is year (which is put into context as to which year it is by its number), months, weeks, days, and the contents of a day.
The calendrical order governing a society has an influence on the astrology practiced there.
For example UK's calendrical notation is days, month, year - horary which primarily focuses on the contents of a day - a moment - is strong in UK.
US is month, day, year - modern natal astrology is prevalent in US.
The direction of motion observed against the celestial sphere over the course of months (West to East) is the reverse of the motion observed during the course of the day (East to West).
And both calendars adhere to the latter adaptation of the Gregorian calendar which is a solar calendar, hence the emphasis on the Sun.
Calendars govern the rhythm of life of the people.
When a calendar falls into disarray it becomes out of synch with Nature, Nature's seasons, and it also pushes people out of synch with nature. Societal order goes through a process of disintegration.
If not consciously aware of it then people feel it or intuit the sense of displacement.
In addition, at northern latitudes people labour throughout the day, under the Sun -- the solar emphasis increases an emphasis on labour and the productivity desired according to the imperial rules used and reflected in the calendrical construct. Everything becomes geared towards productivity- producing stuff - in accordance with the Sun.
In tropical equatorial regions, people rest during the hottest part of the day - labouring during the morning and later in the afternoon/evening.
Climate has a direct impact on the culture of a people, culture is put into order by a calendar, and no matter how hard one tries they can't grow rice in a desert unless nature is completely ignored and artificial means are erected for doing so which subsequently drains other resources.
The indigenous way of thinking was/is to consider the whole circle and spheres of inter-relationships and associated impacts before taking action ... later developments are more linear, the fastest track from A to B.
There is large a shift going on presently (has been going on for a while), back to balance of nature and back to considerations involving the Moon & stars.
The roots to this shift have a lot to do with the relevance of the calendar in use in society - whether it's true and current or has fallen by the way, is out of step.
Unless it's aligned via the stars a calendar will continue to fall out of step because how life of earth's oriented is off-kilter, particularly as earth continues forward in its alignment with Polaris and as matters are precessing through the last few degrees of Pisces.
Sidereal vs tropical is a bit like "do we want to attempt to see what's really going on" or "do we just want to see what we want ".
The old saying of the universe doesn't always give us what we want, but what we need stems from the old order of considerations - counting the stars and measuring the moon at night before getting to the measuring the wind and matters during the day.
The 27/28 divisions of Nakshatras relate to the sidereal month which is found in all indigenous cultures.
They took their bearings and ordered considerations in accord with motion etc observed in Nature - from UK through to the North American Indians, eg. the Bighorn Medicine wheel in Wyoming with 28 spokes built approx 2500 years ago, to the ancient Egyptians, Hebrews (if someone had an interest in astrology relating to something such as the Bible they'd also need to come to grips with the lunar calculations and the luni-solar calendar of the Hebrews, the modern Hebrew calendar commencing around 3700BC) and the Babylonians approx. 4000 BC etc ... but people counted days in relation to the Moon and its phases way back in the Paleolithic Age.
The shift , reduction and subsequent lock to the Sun was relatively recent ... and it's going through a process of dissolution as knowledge of the West increases, further texts are translated etc.
The 30 tithis are the 30 lunar days of the synodic month (Moon's revolution with respect to the Sun - responsible for the Moon phases).
Order of considerations commences with the Moon, as it does in any traditional practice of astrology, eg. Horary attributes 1st house to Moon.
The notion that using sidereal - the celestial sphere as the start point for considerations - means someone has to convert to Vedic astrology is misplaced.
Although studying Vedic can be very, very helpful as it's retained the Moon in its calendrical construct and the order of the tradition.
However, all indigenous cultures started with Stars & Moon bonded to earth via the indigenous Sun as is evidenced in all cultures north or south and including the equatorial region.
General Question:
If astrology ceases to take alignments from the stars and reduces the frame of reference to only Sun & Earth, which is what occurred, is it still astrology?
Planets are used, and they are located by sidereal co-ordinates before going through the convoluted process of aligning them in modern Tropical which more often than not displaces them from the constellations they're transiting.
Another General Question:
How might interpretations improve in both the qualities being assessed and accuracy of timing by aligning earth to it's actual position - and actually being able to see this position on-screen or outdoors - with regard to the celestial sphere?
How might this help to interpret dark & light degrees (which relate to days) and things such as the "burning way"?
If we want to understand what the ancients referred to then there's a need to shift to their frame of reference rather than using modern innovations.
When thinking about this, it's also probably worth thinking about the progression from astronomy/astrology's use of indigenous Sun, to Sol Invictus, to the artificial Sun that's used to run around the circle of the equator instead of the ecliptic.
It's also worth considering what happens to astrology when the Moon is dropped from the civil calendar, as it was in the West.
And what happens to people, in society, when lose sight and a certain understanding of the role that the Moon plays in life upon earth.
Many in the west have gone in search of it again in scientific-philosophical traditions maintained in the East.
It's also worth considering why it is and what it is we're using "Tropical" for without the positioning framework of the stars (celestial sphere).
The tropics are a central region on earth that spans either side of the equator - seasons there are different to more northern latitudes, and they influence climate around the world. People living there observed both sides of the equator and travelled extensively both sides of the equator.
Tropical was the framework of months upon earth commencing from the vernal crossing.
The months were simply numbered, not named.
The start to numbering beginning with the 0 degree of the equinoctial crossing which was pre-empted by a lunar eclipse relative to a star, and the point of the vernal crossing assessed according to the "sign" of the applicable constellation.
When the 0 degree point equinoctial crossing coincided with the 0 degree star of a constellation it marked entry to a new era.
The precessing alignment of the vernal crossing to 0 degrees Aries constellation followed by it's ingress into Pisces marked the exalted position the Sun attained and a descent into confusion between numbers and names, what applied to what.
However, all signs contain both a lunar & solar dimension.
If wanting to understand more about Capricorn then need to consider the seasons of the tropical/equatorial region - which is earth's thermal band - and how what occurs there has a flow on effect influencing climate around the rest of the world.
Every time heavy bombing is experienced in the middle east earth tremors/quakes are experienced at locations further afield ... increasing heat/energy at earth's "girdle", or depleting it, also affects earth's poles. No location on earth is isolated or separate to another location, otherwise earth wouldn't be spherical.
Where Capricorn's concerned, also need to consider:
- the Nile crocodile, it's breeding habits and life-cycle, and crocodiles in general. Capricorn is the "sea goat" or the "goat fish" which via transmissions north became landlocked to a "goat" which loses sight of the water dimension to this sign in pursuit of matter, land, territorial conquest and the isolation this can cause (but also spiritual attainment and mastery if taken as a whole).
- Egypt's "Sobek" - fertility, protection and the power of the Pharoah;
- It's the sign of the primordial waters from which "man" arose; and
- "Sobek's" link to the cadaceus - Mercury - which in Egyptian terms rules the first 7 days/degrees of Capricorn (note, Saturn rules air during the day, Mercury rules air at night. In addition, Mercury rules the lower layer of air closest to earth).
Places such as "Kom-Ombo" built by Tuthmosis III between 1,479 - 1,425 BCE or the "Petsuchos" at "Shedyet" subsequently called Crocodilopolis by the ancient Greeks. "Peret" was the second season of the Ancient Egyptian calendar - the wet season from approx. Nov. to March - and the main growing season of the Egyptian year when crops were sowed in wet soil soaked by the annual Nile floods. Crops germinated during this season. Capricorn is about Germination amongst other things.
And while we connect Mars with Aries, rams and new lambs with Spring ... for sheep to produce lambs by Spring they're breeding at least 5 months before (Scorpio also ruled by Mars).
Mars is also relevant to heat ... and the cycles of nature going on heat.
Most sheep in NH breed only in the fall & winter months - estrus cycle is affected by the seasons.
The number of hours that light enters the eye affects the brain which governs the release of certain precursors and hormones.
Sheep begin estrus when length of day begins decreasing.
Closer to the equator they're breeding cycle is longer.
These days farmers often manage two lambing seasons, as well as two shearing seasons per year. (Shears/knives also = Mars).
Nature's seasons and signs are far from one dimensional.
Capricorn at the tropics:
The Sun represents the heating and drying principle (heat causes water to ascend into the atmosphere).
The Moon is a humidifying and cooling principle, it's the prime cause of putrefaction in matter - it shares moderately in the heating power of the Sun.
The gravitational influence of the Sun on earth, it's apparent direction, impacts air/winds in earth's atmosphere.
The gravitational influence of the Moon impacts volumes of water.
The rise of Capricorn in the tropics occurs in Monsoon season.
Saturn rules air by day - relationship to Sun, Mercury rules air by night - relationship to Moon. The combination of these during the month of Capricorn is to do with low air pressure systems amongst other things.
Saturn has 1st clime from equator north or south, the sphere of the outermost planets corresponding with the outermost/uppermost bounds of Earth.
Earth is an oblate sphere, fatter in the middle.
So, if you're sitting on this fatter mount in the equatorial region, it's the only place on earth where the ecliptic is erect, the angles are erect, and was also position from where could see both the rotation of Nth Pole (anticlockwise, widdershins) and Sth Pole (clockwise) via the circling of stars around a central point.
The South Pole is pointed to by constellation Crux which was visible in northern latitudes, eg Athens, up to around 400AD.
Crux which was considered part of constellation Centaurus and is opposite Cassiopeia, who is reflected with her hands before her in a cross or triangle. The Tuaregs considered the 4 visible stars of Crux iggaren, i.e. four Maerua crassifolia trees, which are part of the Capparidaceae family, members of this plant family also found in tropical region of Australia.
The SH was and always has been part and parcel of astrological considerations. Latter NH developments and innovations don't change this.
For territories north-east of the equator (eg. India, Bangladesh, Asia) the North-East Monsoon or Retreating Monsoon takes place from December to early March and involves the major wind systems that change direction seasonally.
As the Sun's retreating south (Earth's south pole is tilting towards Sun which occurs in earth's orbital progression over a year) the northern land masses cool off and air pressure begins to build.
Hot air rises which draws in cold air to replace it.
The ocean and its surrounding atmosphere holds the heat which causes cold air to sweep down from mountain ranges towards the ocean. While traveling towards the ocean the dry, cold wind picks up moisture from bodies of water it crosses (water warmer, ascends) and dumps it on the coastal areas, peninsula. However, the North-East monsoon doesn't bring as much rain as the south west monsoon - it's drier.
Monsoons play a vital role in managing wildfire threat by providing moisture at higher elevations and feeding desert streams. Heavy monsoon rain can lead to excess winter plant growth, in turn a summer wildfire risk. A lack of monsoon rain can hamper summer seeding, reduces excess winter plant growth but worsens any drought.
Mercury's rulership of the first 7 days of Capricorn in the Egyptian system references the direction of the lower air stream, particularly in regions close to large bodies of water (sea, peninsulars).
In addition, the Nile River which once hosted crocodiles all the way through to Alexandria etc flows from the higher regions in the south (upper Egypt) to the lower regions of Alexandria etc in the north (lower Egypt).
As such, this river also aligns with earth's Nth-Sth axis, and the changing orientation of this axis due to earth's precession indicates how, due to earth's progressive motion, the flow of river would change and seasons there also progressively change which affects agricultural practices. However to see this Earth needs aligning to the stars, which the present Tropical construct doesn't do.
As you move further north or further south in latitude, the tilt of earth's poles relative to Sun when it's aligning through Capricorn becomes more and more apparent, and is a major cause for the cooling of land & water in the NH (water vapour cools, coalesces and descends), and the warming of oceans and land masses in the south (heat causes water to rise, dries things out).
The divergence from the central region of the tropics indicates to what extreme. And Saturn is a demarcator of boundaries, extremes, involving both Moon & Sun.
No sign is singular in dimension, and that's before considering it's sign opposite or those square to it.
Greek/Helenistic astrology owes much to Babylonian and Egyptian predecessors.
Astrology practiced today in the West is largely imported from the tropical/equatorial region.
Question:
If Ptolemy was indeed an Egyptian native, then why would he write about 4 seasons when in Egypt there was 3 seasons which are still retained to this present day?
The seasonal quarters occur in latitudes further north or south of the tropics. In addition, he indicates he doesn't understand the Egyptian terms.
In seeing discussions on sidereal vs tropical, there also appears to be some confusion as to the rotation of a day vs orbit of a year.
There is a difference between earth's rotation and orbit.
These are two different motions and take their referential points from different orientations to the celestial sphere.
In addition, there's differences in apparent motion observed against the celestial sphere of the months over the course of a year (West to East) and the apparent motion of a day (East to West). This doesn't change, NH or SH. What changes is a person's position and what's considered to be on their right or left etc.
Rotation of a 24 hour period (such as that used for Horary) takes it's orientation primarily from earth's axial rotation and the stars at each end of this axis which earth's poles point to - the central point amidst the rotating stars - and the arc of both Moon & Sun in a 24 hour period.
The zodiac co-ordinate system designates the ecliptic as the equatorial plane of the celestial sphere - not to be confused with Earth's equator which serves as the equatorial plane for the geographic/terrestrial co-ordinate system of earth.
Certain Fixed Stars on the ecliptic (the equator of the celestial sphere) were used as "poles" or "equatorial nodes" (not longitudinal poles), eg. Aldebaran - Antares (Taurus-Scorpio), Sirius (Canis Major) etc.
These "poles" (stars) align with particular areas or arms of the Milky Way and which ones were used changed according to earth's changing tilt.
This is significant from the connecting with the "cosmic" or galactic tree pov of the ancients and when the equinox precessed to a point on the ecliptic that aligned with these specific stars it marked significant points in terms of ages upon earth (in addition to the usual precessional change of age).
In reduced cycles of time such the contents of one year, it also shows the connection at certain times of the year Earth has to the galactic streams/tree.
The "Tropical" system has long been in use to mark the start point of months/seasons of the wandering calendar which aligns back with the 0 degrees Aries point (constellation) every 26,000 years or so.
The zodiac co-ordinate system is insulated from earth's motion and it also reveals earth's motion by the change in what's becoming apparent. It's straight-forward and relatively simple to use (providing have some knowledge of stars).
Most of the movement of the stars that appears when inputted into the modern tropical co-ordinate system is wholly due to the peculiarities of Earth's motion.
And, as the zodiac co-ordinate system uses the ecliptic instead of the terrestrial equator for its equatorial plane, its not susceptible to the drifting of stars across the celestial equator. It's also less labour intensive than the modern tropical co-ordinate system.
The equatorial co-ordinate system used in modern tropical shares the same fundamental plane as the geographic co-ordinate systems, ie. earth's equator and because it's fixed to earth it rotates as earth does. This erects the illusion that the stars are moving out of their constellations and associated signs when in fact they're not - it also fixes the signs permanently to rotate with earth while setting the stars into motion.
Ecliptical co-ordinates were used by Hipparchus and Ptolemy in their star catalogues, and were the standard of celestial measurements until the Renaissance, when they were replaced by the equatorial co-ordinate system.
For anyone drawing upon astrological tradition leading up to and into the Renaissance, the question actually appears to be why and for what purpose is the modern Tropical equatorial co-ordinate system being used?
