And here's something else to make Kirk's toes curl. I have always wondered why you can say "antiquity" but not "uniquity"...after all, antique and unique are very similar. Antiqueness sounds completely wrong but uniquity rings well.

I'm really putting my neck on the line here as one of the unwashed
Tracey

Oxford English Dictionary (OED) cites effort as a verb, ?to strengthen, fortify?.

1662 Fuller Worthies (1840) He efforted his spirits with the remembrance?of what formerly he had been. (OED)

I did not say it was correct, only that it ?may be correct?. It is definitely an English word but fell into obsolescence until reporters resurrected it. There is no need to go postal - especially conjoined as you are with others it could start a cyber riot. You are on the Imperialist linguistics team. Riot starts are for the Plebes.

Deb,

Skyscript members can always bank on your candor and fair judgment. I refer to sharing your past usage of sextile and trine. It is a puzzle how only one of the two is a verb.

Thank you for setting up a poll. I find it a helpful leveler.

Oxford English Dictionary (OED) cites effort as a verb, ?to strengthen, fortify?.

Pah! Oxford. What do the English know about speaking English anyway?

Well, even if it is a verb in England, the news anchor still used the improperly. She meant that the news team was "putting forth an effort" to bring me the story. Is endeavoring a word?

As far as the topic goes, good points about trine and sextile. But are they verbs? They are definitely adjectives because they describe the situation between two(or more) planets. Would it be more proper to say Venus is trine Saturn, instead of Venus trines Saturn?

And as far as going postal, I prefer to go medieval. Although, with your reference to 17th century verb usage, I'd say you were going renaissance.


But no, you're right. I should take more of authoritarian stance when it comes to this subject, as a member of the Imperial faction. It just feels like we are being overrun by the roman mob, as it were.

Does anyone remember how to diagram a sentence?
I wonder how much of my contemporary American movie quotes are lost on you guys.

Languages do change, but that doesn?t really concern us and our individual lives. The larger issue, which does concern us and which enters directly into our lives, is the issue of excellence. We are all aware of the qualities possessed by a well-educated person and we see how such a person is viewed in society. So rather than granting language the permission to change, which it will do anyway, let?s look at ourselves and how our use of language here and now places us among our peers and contemporaries.

If you?re giving a presentation at an astrology conference you can surely say that Mars 'conjuncts' Saturn without worrying about a mass movement toward the exits. You probably won't even hear any giggling ? about your verb choice, anyway. You can be sure that there are those in the audience who heard your mistake, and these people tend to be the most educated. It is possible to become very snobbish about these things, but the fact is that well-educated people do have a kind of power over us. They embody standards that we respect and admire, and that society rewards. Even those of us who don?t claim to respect and admire them are still aware that these people are of a different caliber ? a caliber that society looks up to. Our use of language places us in our society, whether we like it or not. But for me that isn?t the most important reason to correct mistakes of grammar and vocabulary. I find it challenging and fun to push myself to a higher linguistic standard. Until three years ago or so I said that planets 'conjuncted'. When I discovered my mistake I knew to correct it. I knew to move up.

Instead of settling for a lower standard by counting on the future acceptability of a word or grammatical form, we can improve our present style and increase our effectiveness of articulation now. One word at a time.

I prefer to go medieval

Whereas I prefer to go mediaeval

I find it challenging and fun to push myself to a higher linguistic standard.

Very cool! It does sound like fun, language is an amazing thing. I took a course on the History the English Language, taught by a Stanford PHD. Well, it was an audio series, I don't go to Standford, but thats beside the point. The point is that it was fascinating. So I agree with you here.

The goal of verbal language is communication. As long as the intended message has reached the intended recipient and understood, language has done its job. We just need to keep the verbal symbols we utter to be uniform enough so that we can communicate. Thats why its important to preserve the language.

There is also an interesting side note to this involving the study of Old English. Academics found that when studying how Old English might have sounded(since no one alive today speaks Old English), it was better to look at the writings of the uneducated, as they tend to spell phonetically. That alone might be the saving grace.

What, there's no love for coitus?

As far as the topic goes, good points about trine and sextile. But are they verbs?

Both Webster?s and the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) define trine as a verb:

Trine verb3 rare To put or join in a trine aspect.
a 1700 Dryden Palamon & Arcite By fortune he (Saturn) was now to Venus trined
b 1840 Browning Sordello Tis done! And now deter Who may the Tuscan ? once Jove trined for her ? From Friedrich?s path! (OED)

According to both the OED and Webster?s sextile is not a verb but is an adjective and noun, with astrological citation. Square is squarely a verb, complete with astrological reference (OED cites 1858 Zadkiel, also 1697 Creech on Manilus).

Lexicographers would have the verb use thus:

Sun is conjunct Jupiter
Sun is sextile Jupiter
Sun squares Jupiter
Sun trines Jupiter
Sun opposes Jupiter

The current language structure for the aspect set is incongruous without reason. (Tracey, odd word alert - cover your ears. ) Academic terminology designates specialized knowledge, not general language. Astrology is a specialized academic field and the aspect set is an essential component of astrology?s infrastructure. Astrological aspect theory is elegant theory. Specialized terminology used to structure elegant theory should be consistent and precise. The minor adaptation from adjective conjunct to verb (Sun conjuncts Jupiter) is not rocket science or charm quarks, but it is consistent and precise. Ditto for sextiles.

Per Dr. Jeffery Triggs, Oxford English Dictionary?s Director of the North America Reading Program,

?the best a "scientific'' lexicographer can do is trust his citation evidence, and if this is broad enough, it is certainly more objective than the opinions of any "usage panel'' could hope to be.

?no one's English is all English. (General Explanations' preface to the OED)
http://www.leoyan.com/global-language.c ... insky.html

The OED citations appear to be extremely thorough. The citation evidence for the aspects is dated from the 1600?s to 1800?s from poets, playwrights and astrologers. One possibility for the inconsistency between aspect adjective-verb sets in the printed word may be that sextile and conjunct had less poetic value to authors of the time, ie, possibly displeased the ear.

Kirk, your comments on standards of excellence are well said.

Ntl, I haven?t sheathed my light-saber yet. I have a strong regard for the excellence of language and mind, which is why I am not a big fan of general language changes. One of the endearing subtleties of language, in all its correct usage, is its capacity to facilitate and enhance higher orders of thought processes. In addition, I am against the overuse (abuse) of thesaurus synonyms because the habit can dilute word connotations and compromise excellence of meaning. Imo, this is not the case with conjunct/conjoined for they are virtually identical in meaning (OED).

Christina

Thanks Christina for that and I agree Kirk's comments are excellent regarding the proper use of language. I am always on my kid's backs about talking properly.

Now we just need to work on building a bridge across the traditional and modern divide...let's all work together and not waste energy arguing!

Tracey

I can't believe this thread is still going on! I've read all the posts and still don't see that there is one single argument against "conjoin" which holds water. It's just laziness I think. As I said, we already have plenty of words. We don't need to create another. But despite all our differences, this thread has made quite an entertaining read! I certainly laughed out loud more than once. I like the way we can all disagree yet still maintain a sense of good humour. Hooray for skyscript and friendly debate!

Keren,

I understand your comments on ?one planet conjuncts another?. You claim it is incorrect grammar.

What is your position on sextiles? Is it correct or incorrect to say ?Sun sextiles Jupiter??

Christina