25 by epurdue Papretis wrote:Gjiada wrote: Angelus degrees work because they depend on stars rising with signs, and the same Picatrix ones. No spirits, entities, masters at all. Just (Arab) astrology . But shouldn't they be used sidereally then? Those rising stars have changed tropically since the days of Picatrix (or Arabs). I'm not sure how literal that is as far as stars rising with signs. The Picatrix is only about a 1000 years old, and even when that was written, the stars were out of whack with the signs anyway. I think the logic is based partially on the stars rising with the signs, but I also suspect it has something to do with various kinds of dignity such as bounds. I haven't compared it too closely yet. One thing though, the degree delineations follow the character of the sign generally, so each sign will have a theme. I'd imagine the degrees falling in the bound of a malefic will be different than a degree falling in the bound of a benefic. I'm guessing though. As far as the decans, and for that matter Lunar Mansions, I think there is something else happening. The uses seem to be primarily for magic. I can't think of another use for a decan or mansion image. Quote Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:47 pm
26 by margherita Mithra6 wrote: I'm not sure how literal that is as far as stars rising with signs. The Picatrix is only about a 1000 years old, and even when that was written, the stars were out of whack with the signs anyway. I think the logic is based partially on the stars rising with the signs, but I also suspect it has something to do with various kinds of dignity such as bounds. I haven't compared it too closely yet. One thing though, the degree. Abano degrees - edited by Angelus, come from Albumasar liber VI of Great introduction of Astrology about stars rising with signs. Abano knew it because he translated Beginning of wisdom, where IbnEzra quotes (copies?) Albumasar. And one of the books in the library of Pietro Abano was Picatrix. So their meaning coming from fixed stars rising with zodiacal signs, they could be used in order to rectify Ascendant in a birth chart. Quote Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:39 pm
27 by Mark Degree influences seem to be coming from three basic sources. Firstly, those attributed purely to psychic revelation in communication with spirits-Charubel and Sabian Symbols are clear modern examples. Certain aspects of medieval astrological magic could be compared here with the attempt to communicate with Angels. Its well known that John Dee used the medium Kelly who claimed to divine spirit messages through a crystal ball. Although as far as I am aware Dee never linked this into his astrology. Picatrix presents the Arabic lunar mansions but also inspired a lot of later astrological magic. Even William Lilly seems to have tried spirit communication out although he later dispensed with it and never brought this into his astrological practice as far as I am aware. Going back to hellenistic times astologers such as Vettius Valens ascribed their astrological practice to the support of their personal Daemons or guardian spirit. So there is undeniably a legacy for astrologers seeking the support of spiritual helpers, Angels or Good Daemons. Going back to Sabian symbols though there appears no attempt to express such psychic aid in astrological language. Older sources seemed to represent such inspiration by referring to planetary or fixed star symbolism supporting such degree meanings. Secondly, linked to fixed stars-We see this in Liber Hermetis and earlier Hellenistic texts. As Papretis suggests those sidereal positions will have changed substantially in relation to the tropical zodiac. By the time this is transmitted to the european astrologers there seems to be considerable confusion over actual star positions. Ben Dykes comments in his translation of Bonatti for example that several of the fixed star points listed by Bonatti are not known today. This could be either due to bad astronomy, corrupted translations or Bonatti using these 'stars' as symbolic points liked to some magical/hermetic tradition lost to us. Certainly, we find the 15 behenian or hermetic fixed stars influencing medieval astrological magic. Thirdly, we can link degree points to planets. Although planetary rulership of dignities such as triplicity, bound and decan is most commonly expressed there was planetary rulership in hellenistic times assigned to the dodekamoria , and the less well understood monomoria which involved each degree point being assigned a planetary ruler. Were these rulerships assigned through a rational system or psychic inspiration? Last edited by Mark on Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:58 pm, edited 4 times in total. Quote Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:10 pm
Re: Sabian Symbols 28 by Yossarian Julie K wrote:The first question Lynda was asked was about the degree 18 Libra! She could speak up without any reference to her book! 'Two Men Placed Under Arrest Give an Accounting for Their Acts Before The Tribunal of Society'. Quite uncanny but it's true. No, it isn't true. Wheeler originally "channeled" (snicker) "Two Men Placed Under Arrest" as 19 Libra. About 6 years later it was changed from 19 Libra to 18 Libra because someone thought it was a mistake (that's what it says on Lynda's own web-site). Then after many more years, "'Two Men Placed Under Arrest" was altered a 2nd time to add "Give an Accounting for Their Acts Before The Tribunal of Society." I don't find the meanings to be descriptive or even remotely accurate and worse, their quite subjective and open to any interpretation imaginable. Quote Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:13 pm
29 by margherita MarkC wrote: Secondly, linked to fixed stars-We see this in Liber Hermetis and earlier Hellenistic texts. As Papretis suggests those sidereal positions will have changed substantially in relation to the tropical zodiac. By the time this is transmitted to the european astrologers there seems to be considerable confusion over actual star positions. Ben Dykes comments in his translation of Bonatti for example that several of the fixed star points listed by Bonatti are not known today. This could be either due to bad astronomy, corrupted translations or Bonatti using these 'stars' as symbolic points liked to some magical/hermetic tradition lost to us. Certainly, we find the 15 behenian or hermetic fixed stars influencing medieval astrological magic. Beibenia means just "fixed" : they are the 15 brilliant stars mentioned in Almagest by Ptolemy (let alone Canopus which was not visible anymore) and others of second magnitude, but with a special influence (the complete list should be around 30 stars, it depends on catalogues). MarkC wrote:Thirdly, we can link degree points to planets. Although planetary rulership of dignities such as triplicity, bound and decan is most commonly expressed there was planetary rulership in hellenistic times assigned to the dodekamoria , and the less well understood monomoria which involved each degree point being assigned a planetary ruler. Were these rulerships assigned through a rational system or psychic inspiration? Not the ones from Abano/Engels. Moreover in Abano version, there are no decans at all at the beginning of every sign, just degrees, they were added by Engels. Anyway here it's impossible to give the whole list of degrees associated with the different constellations, but check for example Boll's Sphaera. Quote Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:26 pm
30 by Mark Beibenia means just "fixed" : they are the 15 brilliant stars mentioned in Almagest by Ptolemy (let alone Canopus which was not visible anymore) and others of second magnitude, but with a special influence (the complete list should be around 30 stars, it depends on catalogues). Certainly Anonymous of 379 refers to these 30 bright stars although they differ slightly from the 30 referred to by Ptolemy in his Phases of the Fixed Stars. However, your missing my point somewhat. By the medieval period astrological magic as presented by figures like Cornelius Agrippa was only using these 15 fixed stars in magical practice and as seals/talismans. I was simply making the link between fixed stars, and astrological magic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behenian_fixed_stars Not the ones from Abano/Engels. Moreover in Abano version, there are no decans at all at the beginning of every sign, just degrees, they were added by Engels. I know next to nothing about this. It sounds intriguing. Do we know the source of this? Was this a psychic derived system or was it supported by any astrological logic? Has this been translated into English? Quote Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:45 pm
31 by margherita MarkC wrote: I know next to nothing about this. It sounds intriguing. Do we know the source of this? Was this a psychic derived system or was it supported by any astrological logic? Has this been translated into English? 1) An Italian resercher found a copy of Abano manuscript in Munchen, so she could compare with Engels edition. 2) Which psychic system? Just Ptolemy Almagest. Quote Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:01 pm
32 by Mark Hello Gjiada, 1) An Italian resercher found a copy of Abano manuscript in Munchen, so she could compare with Engels edition. 2) Which psychic system? Just Ptolemy Almagest. I have heard of Peter Albano but know next to nothing about his astrology. Could you say a little more about Peter Albano's ideas on degree influence and the Engels edition you refer to? I am living in the land of the ignorant on all this. I suspect I am not alone here. Mark Quote Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:20 pm
Sabian Symbols 33 by Julie K yossarian, Just checking - both Lynda Hill and Dane Rudyar offer these words for the Sabian Symbol for 18 degrees Libra. The Sabian Symbols are just that - 'symbolic'. Our perceptions are drawn from our life experiences, Cultural background, family, communtiy we live in etc. We are in our own individual 'bag of skin' - no two of us identical! Julie K Quote Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:39 pm
34 by margherita MarkC wrote: Could you say a little more about Peter Albano's ideas on degree influence and the Engels edition you refer to? Mark Johannes Angelus (Engel) published Astrolabium Planum in Augsburg in 1488. Angelus said that he took the description of 360 degrees from Pietro Abano, but this medieval work was lost till Professoressa Federici Vescovini found a copy in Munchen Bayerischen Staatsbibliothek, and she could compare Engel's Renaissance version with Abano's one. Abano was the translator of IbnEzra Book of Wisdom, so surely the Italian astrologer knew Albumasar decans ( IbnEzra copied Albumasar almost word by word) and he knew Picatrix, a latin version of an Arab book of magic and astrology, which has a chapter with a similar list of decans. We know how Albumasar wrote his list, Franz Boll in 1903 explained it in details in his book Sphaera, in a few words Albumasar just considered constellations rising with 12 signs (it's a little more complicated but it would be quite long explaing details, I hope soon in a proper place). Then we could compare Albumasar list with Abano/Engel one and we will find that images of the latter depend on the influence of constellations. Sometimes it's very easy and sometimes it's not so obviously because many star catalogues unfortunately are lost to us. Images of Astrolabium Plamum are frescoed in Padua in medieval Palazzo della Ragione. Here too some scholars played to find the right correspondance between the book and the frescoes. This is a sample: Quote Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:22 pm
Re: Sabian Symbols 35 by Yossarian Julie K wrote:yossarian, Just checking - both Lynda Hill and Dane Rudyar offer these words for the Sabian Symbol for 18 degrees Libra. The Sabian Symbols are just that - 'symbolic'. Our perceptions are drawn from our life experiences, Cultural background, family, communtiy we live in etc. We are in our own individual 'bag of skin' - no two of us identical! Julie K Like I said, it's purely subjective and those who are into new-age-pop-feel-good-psycho-babble astrology will probably enjoy Sabian Symbols stupendously, especially since it allows weaker astrologers who don't want to spend the time to learn craft to babble on as though they might actually know something. Quote Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:20 am
36 by Mark Hello Gjiada, Thanks very much. Thats all extremely interesting. We know how Albumasar wrote his list, Franz Boll in 1903 explained it in details in his book Sphaera, in a few words Albumasar just considered constellations rising with 12 signs (it's a little more complicated but it would be quite long explaing details, I hope soon in a proper place). Fixed stars is a particular interest of mine so I find this intriguing. I have read Ibn Ezra but not the other sources you refer to. The original concept of decans used by the Ancient Egyptian was based on the rising fixed stars rather than planets or signs. This therefore seems an interesting return to something paralleling ancient practice. I assume Federici Vescovini published her findings on Peter Albano's 360 degree meanings in Italian and German? As I study more my biggest regret is my lack of command of Latin or other modern languages. Images of Astrolabium Plamum are frescoed in Padua in medieval Palazzo della Ragione. Here too some scholars played to find the right correspondance between the book and the frescoes. Thanks for the lovely illustration! I seem to remember hearing a short paper on this at a conference. Its been subject to considerable academic debate I believe? I suspect all this material would be very welcome on the traditional forum here. I for one at least would love to find out more on all this. Any chance you could share some of this there at some stage? Quote Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:02 am