Since Andrew wondered if there is some kind of synchronicity operating between 'dark matter' and the financial turmoil, perhaps it's worth mentioning that 1932/33, when Zwicky made his observations, was when Roosevelt was elected and implemented the New Deal that pulled the USA out of the Depression. It was 3 years after the Great Crash, so it's a bit of a stretch, but it's something to consider.

Wow, I love this one! It sounds like running a hedgefund to cover up for a deficiancy in the accounts!!

Andrew J. Bevan wrote:

Since Andrew wondered if there is some kind of synchronicity operating between 'dark matter' and the financial turmoil, perhaps it's worth mentioning that 1932/33, when Zwicky made his observations, was when Roosevelt was elected and implemented the New Deal that pulled the USA out of the Depression. It was 3 years after the Great Crash, so it's a bit of a stretch, but it's something to consider.

Wow, I love this one! It sounds like running a hedgefund to cover up for a deficiancy in the accounts!! :D :'

Actually I see that the correspondence is better than I thought, now that I've read a bit more. The 1929 crash was of the stock market rather than the core financial system - that came later. The failures in the banking system apparently happened in three waves in the early thirties, with the third and largest coming between late 1932 and spring 1933 - after the Jupiter/Neptune conjunction, so more or less the same time that dark matter was first postulated.

It's easy to see why financial bubbles might be linked to the cycle of Jupiter/Neptune - the planets of expansion and illusion - in which case last week's excitement could just be the middle phase of a longer crisis. We can perhaps expect the stabilisation measures taken last week to work until next summer, but looking at Friday's bounce it's hard to believe that the era of 'irrational exuberance' is over.

And perhaps by then CERN will have got over its teething problems and be ready to smash hadrons together in earnest!

Malcolm

A few years back the bankruptcy laws of the US were "updated" When that update occured one of the things that changed, which I think is a huge contributor to the current crisis, was that Judges were no longer allowed to take a home loan and revamp it with the intent that the current person would keep their house and pay off the loan but at a pay rate they could afford.

I think it was a huge mistake to take that power from the judges. Then overinflation of the property market on top of that! they(housing lenders) are now in a position where the government is being forced to do that very same thing (take the home loans adn re-write them). The government in taking on the risky loans only hope of regaining the cashflow is in doing just what they stopped judges from doing in the firstplace. re-writing the loans. while you say the taxpayer is paying for it, I'd suggest to you that yes they are, the home owners are after all taxpayers and at the moment one of seven homes for sale are in forcloser.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/24965856

The only way to work this is to re-write the loans and default as few as possible else it would be a worse nightmare than 1930's .

Now having said all that, doesn't that seem like a VERY Pluto transiting into Capricorn thing? that may be me applying it to myself somewhat as to me Capricorn represents home, real estate etc, my IC is capricorn. so possibly I'm a bit more inclined to see it that way, BUT the taking apart and putting back together of a financial system is Very Pluto in Capricorn, Take the whole reformation beginnings, or even the US as a country beginning, both very pluto into Capricorn oriented.

Pluto+ capricorn = Change + Management

yes???
Granny

PS apparently someone was listening to my thoughts because look at this!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080922/ap_ ... l_meltdown

BUT the taking apart and putting back together of a financial system is Very Pluto in Capricorn,

Yes and realising that everything has its limits after the "bubble" of Jupiter's SAG realm where the only way is up and free markets are everything! I guess we are entering into an era of much greater regulation!

its noticeable that actually Pluto's retro step back into Jupiter's rulership had brought this to a head, with a loss of confidence in the banking system. Jupiter's transit through Saturn's realm too shows that those bankers are having to deal with a greater scarcity of resources.

Jupiter's SAG realm focuses us on the cosmos too. those hidden Pluto-like forces and dark mater etc. Its noticeable that Malcolm mentioned the renewal of interest in the dark matter concept in 1974-1975, which was when Jupiter was transiting its Piscean realm and quincunx Pluto in Libra.
It was a cosmological idea borne out by studying the forms in 'deep space" (Pisces) that required current models to be changed because of the need to account for all this hidden mass (Pluto) that couldn't be seen!

Its the case I guess that an idea germinated under Jupiter/Neptune in the 30's should remain literally an "academic" /erudite idea until observations made by astronomers in the 70's, made them unavoidably aware of what couldn't be accounted for and produced a necessity to adjust their whole belief (that sounds so Jupiter/Pluto quincunx!!).
mike c

granny_skot wrote: The only way to work this is to re-write the loans and default as few as possible else it would be a worse nightmare than 1930's .
...
... the taking apart and putting back together of a financial system is Very Pluto in Capricorn,

I suspect the whole system is so self-referential that re-writing the loans will only shift the problem, so that it comes back from another angle.

Raymond Merriman certainly seems to agree about Pluto in Capricorn:
http://www.mmacycles.com/articles/artic ... capricorn/

Malcolm

Since stopping that activity (loan restructuring) is a large part of what Caused the problem, Fixing it so it is back in place should fix a large part of the problem.

G

Maybe will improve when Jupiter moves into Aquarius and gets the trine from Saturn in Libra, a more dignified location for Saturn than its current febrile location. So improvement in early 2009 when the restructuring takes hold.

Although before then it looks like it may get worse with the US election taking place against a backdrop of further collapse and bad news in November
( Sat/Nep/Ur), although this is going to lead to concrete action in late December setting the stage for 2009 restructuring ??
mike c

granny_skot wrote:Since stopping that activity (loan restructuring) is a large part of what Caused the problem, Fixing it so it is back in place should fix a large part of the problem.

I'm surprised you see that as a major cause of the problem, granny. I can see that it might be a better path back to stability, but the underlying problem is that the banking system depends on the continuing creation of money for its own stability - and more money is being created than the world can usefully use.

That money was finding an outlet in the housing market, by inflating prices; loan restructuring would block that more gently than foreclosures - but just as surely. And if the money that they can't stop creating can't find an outlet ... the banks fall over.

The deeper problem, I think, is that they tie Venus and Mercury together. In her book on the houses Deb criticises the modern association of Venus with money, and points out that it was traditionally associated with Mercury. For money as a medium of exchange I think that's absolutely right. But money also functions as a store of value and there I think the Venus association is quite reasonable.

The problem is that there are times when Venus and Mercury are going in different directions; sometimes the money supply needs to shrink in one capacity, at the same time as it is expanding in the other - but our existing monetary system doesn't provide any way for that to happen.

Actually in the 1930s I believe there were attempts to introduce currencies ('stamp scrip') that avoided this problem (based on work by a man called Silvio Gesell, who Keynes described as a 'neglected prophet'). Unfortunately the Second World War came along and they were abandoned - perhaps the idea will be given another chance.

Sorry for going so far off topic (although 'black hole' does seem an appropriate title for the current economic situation). Perhaps we should ask Deb for a corner where non-astrological digressions can be pursued.

Malcolm

Malcolm said:
Sorry for going so far off topic (although 'black hole' does seem an appropriate title for the current economic situation).

By all means, Malcolm. This is perfect!

But money also functions as a store of value and there I think the Venus association is quite reasonable.

This reminds me of a subject I posted about on another list a few years ago. One of the long and interesting cycles of Venus is it's transits of the Sun astronomically.
They are quite rare falling in pairs with alternating cycles of 105.5 and 121.5 years between any pair and the next.

the last transit was June 8th 2004 with its corresponding transit on June 6th 2012.

Anyway - the point is that the current pair ie 2004 -2012 fell in Gemini , ie Mercurial rule, and prior to these the last pair to fall in gemini was June 6th 1761 and June 3rd 1769.
The transit of 1761 saw the opening of the UK's first canal built by the Duke of Bridgewater to allow the mass transit of coal to Manchester where the Industrial revolution was taking off (opened within a week of the transit).
So the cycle underpins the accretion of the 'value of fossil fuel" made possible by mass transit, and of course the whole idea of the mass transit of goods.
I thought it was interesting that the 2004 transit fell at the time that fossil fuels ie oil were reaching an "end point" where we became aware of the finite nature of it as a commodity with the ensuing chaos which has flowed from that ever since.
Never taken this thought any further but interesting nevertheless - or not as the case may be!
mike c

The Times relate to a radical and thought-provoking story where top Scientists suggest that 'God hates the CERN project' and that the project by its very nature is attempting to prevent its own success.

The Times wrote:According to Nielsen, it means that the creation of the boson at some point in the future would then ripple backwards through time to put a stop to whatever it was that had created it in the first place.

Nielsen?s idea has been likened to that of a man travelling back through time and killing his own grandfather. ?Our theory suggests that any machine trying to make the Higgs shall have bad luck,? he said.

?It is based on mathematics, but you could explain it by saying that God rather hates Higgs particles and attempts to avoid them.?

MikeC has got a thread running on the CERN project elsewhere in the Mundane section. My thread started with making a comparison between the attempts to dabble with the building blocks of reality with certain 'Black Holes' occuring in the financial market due weaknesses in real estate. My observations were rather far fetched but it will be interesting to see where the theories of Holger Bech Nielsen and Masao Ninomiya take us.