Hi Timashev, I have moved your new post into this thread to keep this topic linked together - Deb

http://astrologer.ru/article/victory_of_mccain.html.en

On November 2, 2008 Russian astrologers Albert and Maria Timashev forecasted that John McCain will win the U.S. presidential election. However, on November 4, 2008 his opponent, Barack Obama, has won the election and became the President-elect of the United States. This fact forced Authors to revise the astrological birth charts of candidates and made the conclusion that Barack Obama's official birth certificate data is invalid and misleading.

The official birth certificates state the birth time of John McCain as 6:25 PM and the birth time of Barack Obama as 7:24 PM. Authors' initial rectification gave 5:57 PM for McCain and 7:11 PM for Obama on the base of the key life events of the candidates. Resulting astrological prognostic charts led Authors to conclusion of inevitable McCain's victory since he has sufficient astrological indications for Presidency while Obama has absolutely not. As long as this conclusion appeared untrue, one must question the source data reliability and accuracy.

As before Timashevs state that individual born at 7:24 (or 7:11) PM AHST on August 4, 1961 at Honolulu, Hawaii just cannot be the President. The nearest birth time making Barack Obama's Presidency possible is 6:36 PM that is 24 minutes before 7 PM, not after 7 PM as officially claimed. However such a derived birth time cannot be considered a reliable basis of astrological conclusions until it thoroughly verified and confirmed by making the successful future predictions. Besides a possibility of Kenyan birth, wrong date, etc shouldn't be ruled out as well. Initially Russian astrologers trusted the official birth certificate, and that led them straight to the incorrect prediction.

As regards the future of the President-elect Barack Hussein Obama II, in his new revised prognostic chart cast for 6:36 PM it looks generally unclouded till summer 2011 when lots of problems would gradually appear culminating in spring 2012 when physical elimination (or at least a successful attempt on his life) is highly possible.

On November 2, 2008 Russian astrologers Albert and Maria Timashev forecasted that John McCain will win the U.S. presidential election. However, on November 4, 2008 his opponent, Barack Obama, has won the election and became the President-elect of the United States. This fact forced Authors to revise the astrological birth charts of candidates and made the conclusion that Barack Obama's official birth certificate data is invalid and misleading.

I've had it. I'm so sick of the Internet astrology crowd. We as a group seem to be nothing but failures, flops and fakes. The candidate predicted to win didn't, so the people who made the prediction are ?forced? to change the birth data. Mind you, there's still no proof of the new birth data being accurate and matching records; it's simply changed to adjust for the failed prediction. Predictions are made from the charts of the predictor's choosing for both candidates. Could any other profession or intellectual interest group get away with such nonsense?

There has been no attempt to show how the predictions were arrived at, no attempt to further astrological studies. A couple people just wanted to make a name for themselves and are busy draping their recently uncovered backsides. Do we really want to waste our precious time with this?

Hear, hear !
On morning of 4th November, I posted on this thread:

If [Obama] doesn't [win], it can easily be explained as a result of using the wrong birth time / place.

Won't say I told you so, but Mr Timashev has now done just that...
BTW, I think Obama's birth certificate looks about as solid as they come. It's been picked apart and analysed, and prominent Hawaian officials hav vouched for it.
Graham Fox

I wrote that there was no attempt to show how the prediction was arrived at, but that isn't accurate. In the thread's opening posted it was stated:

According to Mr. and Mrs. Timashev's calculations John McCain has brilliant astrological indications for Presidency on November 4, 2008. Both rulers of his leadership and career of the current period of his life ? Saturn and Mars ? are in very strong and beneficent positions at the principal prognostic chart called True Primary Direction.

So there was some willingness at first to give a taste of the astrological reasoning behind the prediction, but not enough for those who want to follow along with the prediction techniques. We've quickly changed to a new birth time for Obama and have a new prediction of bodily harm for him with no astrological techniques or reasons given. That is more acceptable for the tabloids than a web site for serious students of astrology.


Mr. Timashev wrote:

Initially Russian astrologers trusted the official birth certificate, and that led them straight to the incorrect prediction.

The complete lack of reflection on the methods used ? or that they may have been used incorrectly ? is astounding! No, it's instead turned into a matter of incorrect chart data. That's not the way to earn respect in any field.

Won't say I told you so, but Mr Timashev has now done just that...

Won?t say either, but I kinda of saw that coming a mile away...

I've had it. I'm so sick of the Internet astrology crowd. We as a group seem to be nothing but failures, flops and fakes. The candidate predicted to win didn't, so the people who made the prediction are ?forced? to change the birth data. Mind you, there's still no proof of the new birth data being accurate and matching records; it's simply changed to adjust for the failed prediction. Predictions are made from the charts of the predictor's choosing for both candidates. Could any other profession or intellectual interest group get away with such nonsense?

Amen to that !

Yuzuru,

In reference to the question of this quote:

Could any other profession or intellectual interest group get away with such nonsense?

I think the answer is both 'Yes' and 'No'. It has something to do with both the nature of what we are studying and also the conditions under which we are working. Sending ideas across the internet or releasing them in the media is not such a great, safe and secluded manner for working in comparison with the hidden and confidential mess of a laboratory. Within a laboratory there is at least a decent opportunity for sorting the tangle out before anything goes beyond the four walls. And be sure there is great controverse in both principle and truths within studies that are enjoying considerably higher scientific repute in society than astrology.

The nature of our study, the problem of prediction, is awkward in design. It is 3 dimensional; You have to know what is going to happen, where it is going to happen and when. Either you are on the ball or you are not. If one coordinate is wrong then the prediction fails. I have many times compared it to parachute jumping. You can see your target from up above, but you have to hit it dead - if you land marginally outside the target area you score know points.

Now there is some dirty work to attend to in astrology and some laboratory mess that needs going through. One of the problems being that we are all individuals confessing to our own individual approach and not submitting to the rules of the laboratory. Personally, I find myself going through periods of great frustration in the sports section - I set up all my instruments in an orderly fashion and all the same I manage to muck it up for myself. Many errors are due to lack of dicipline. It is necessary to be able to discern when to go in and place a prediction, when to place a problem for examination and when to stay off. Hopefully, we could work through some of our difficulties like a structured group and still come out like friends on the other side. This could be difficult, becasue we all by nature are striving for recognition and trying to get to the top within our field. Maybe our wish to contribute to the discussion should be more in the foreground than our personal preferment.

I don't think the odds of McCain winning the election were very high as the presidential race was coming towards the end, and I do not think we should fret over the fact that Obama won. I still think that you make a point, and there may be some fruitful discussion on how we should measure up our observations and conclusions, and how should these be made useful.

Hi, Andrew.
If you read again, you will see that the remark quoted was from Kirk, I was only agreeing

But you gave a good example: the sports forum. In the moment is my favorite forum and it is always a pleasure to follow the discussions because:

1 - there is no fighting, because there is no reason to fight... everybody has the same goal, to score more points !
2 - no bickering because there is no reason to argue "no, Frawley is wrong", or "I use the ASC as home team". Everybody use what they want and next week we share our continuous envy of Deb?s score !
3- is a continuous exercise on the importance of technique and humbleness. There is no "I am an astrologer for 20 years..." it doesn?t matter ! Just put your money where your mouth is !

If possible, the model of the sports forum should be followed by all astrological research: focus on prediction, clear, non-ambiguos predictions declared beforehand, continuous feedback, an open and non biased discussion of the results, and a humble actitude to learn from our mistakes.

Hi Andrew

I have many times compared it to parachute jumping. You can see your target from up above, but you have to hit it dead - if you land marginally outside the target area you score no points.

Surely if you land outside the area in parachute jumping you can die.
Also, astrologers often claim some points even when mainly wrong. Mr timashev predicts that for Obama things will be

generally unclouded till summer 2011 when lots of problems would gradually appear culminating in spring 2012 when physical elimination (or at least a successful attempt on his life) is highly possible.

So Mr Timashev will doubtless be keeping his fingers crossed. Not sure what the difference is between physical elimination and a successful attempt on his life, but you can bet your boots that if someone manages to slightly injure Obama at any time from now on, Mr Timashev will claim some credit for "successful prediction". And if they don't, well he can always remind us again of "a possibility of Kenyan birth..."
Please...
Graham

Three cheers for both Yuzuru and Kirk, then!

Let's put the problem another way: I wasn't expecting McCain to win. It didn't look as if the election was flowing his way. I wasn't expecting the prediction of his victory to be correct but it would have provided me with both a reason and approach for examining the facts if Obama had been defeated.

Obama won about 2/3 of the delegates so the result of the election leant very much in his direction, but McCain won 1/3 of the delegates - an from a personal or individualistic point of view that is a true acheivement! It is still possible to get the details in a muddle!

Hi Yuzuru

I too think that these people who pride themselves in being able to pick the winner out of two nominees, should spend some time in the sports forum ? or at least they should be made to predict, not only the winner, (for which they should get only 1 point), but also the number of votes by which they won (for which they would get 3).

I never considered applying astrology to the US election because to me, and absolutely everyone I knew, it was completely obvious that BO would win from the moment McCain entered the race. I mean, come on ?

Just after the election last week someone wrote a post in the horary forum saying that they had predicted a win for BO, and if they?d published it beforehand it would have been a great prediction. No it wouldn?t. If all we care about is ?who will win?? then all astrologers have a 50-50% chance of getting it right; (compared with a 99%-1% chance of getting it right if they put the astrology aside )

I think it is much better to study these charts as events unfold, and remember that they are very small pieces of a huge picture.

As for this thread, I do not take it seriously. It is impossible to see the logic of saying that the proposed rectified chart cannot be trusted ?until it thoroughly verified and confirmed by making the successful future predictions? ? which is then followed by a precise prediction of an assassination attack!

I think this thread is a lesson to us all.

i agree w/deb -- ever since bo senatorial campaign, which was majikly won -- his opposition both in the primary (blair hull) and main event (jack ryan) imploded, much like the us economy did the last weeks of the presidential campaign -- i'd been saying when he campaigns he walks on water, and this prior to the horoscope --

about the voc moon at his declaration in february 2007 -- note his 28 degree scorpio MC -- this factor personally obviates the v/o/c in those instances where the moon is in an applying aspect to his MC -- what are the cookbook definitions of an "anarectic" MC -- last minute saves?, or some such -- the Inauguration voc Moon at 29SC 45 is right on his 10th house cusp