23 cancer is aligned with Pollux the Immortal twin.

Granny

Hi, Pete

In answer to the question you raised about signs of death in the chart, I do see two signs cited by Lilly in his material on the absent party:

<<Together with this, consider if the Lord of the ascendant or the Moon, be in the 12th house from his own house, with any evil planet, of if he be in the twelfth, in aspect of any unfortunate planet, either by square or opposition, or if the sun be unfortunate or afflicted, or the Moon in like manner, for then the absent is dead. . .">>

Decumbiture charts are some of my favorite horary material. Death on the chart is the first thing we look for in traditional decumbiture. If I could borrow some of the traditions of decumbiture and read the reference to the Sun and Moon totally independently of findings of the Lord of the ascendant or Moon in the 12th house from his own house, then there are indications on the chart of death. Borrowing representation from decumbiture, The Sun represents the life force: if you will, the vitality of (in this case) the quesited, while the Moon represents his ability to renew his energies.

Sun in conjunction with the lesser malefic, Mars, is not a good indication for the quesited's vitality. Conjunction is considered evil when it joins one planet to an evil planet (Sun to Mars). The conjunction could represent an injury, fever, or infection, perhaps coinciding with the prisoner's recapture. The Moon in turn suffers by her placement in the Via Combusta. The ability to recover is waning, like the waning Moon, and unstable in action, like Moon in the Via Combusta. According to my reading of Lilly's material on the absent quesited, Lilly calls these both signs of death. However, I would never be content to attribute death on a chart from only two signs. I would want to see three signs before I judged death, and even then I would only judge death if there were no signs of recovery on the chart.

There is a sign of recovery in that the Moon is moving next to a sextile with Venus, the lesser benefic. So I believe there will be at least a temporary improvement in the condition of the quesited during the next two weeks.

I can't really say that I have found the third sign of death in the chart using Lilly's material on the absent person. However, the chart is certainly not showing us a person at the peak of health, vitality or ability to recover.

As for the question of returning alive, I don't know that the chart is showing us that. I don't see the return on the chart--possibly because it is not within the two week time frame demanded by the querent--so I hesitate to make the ultimate prediction about the condition of the quesited upon his return.

Unfortunately, all I can say at this time is that I believe the quesited will not return within the two week time frame. Because the chart seems silent to me on the event of his return, I cannot predict what his condition will be upon return. However, according to the chart, I believe he was living-- but not in especially good condition--at the time the question was asked.

Have you heard any news from the querent yet? Best wishes to her and her family.

Hope this is useful!

Best,

Pam

Hi Pam,
you wrote:

<<Together with this, consider if the Lord of the ascendant or the Moon, be in the 12th house from his own house, with any evil planet, of if he be in the twelfth, in aspect of any unfortunate planet, either by square or opposition, or if the sun be unfortunate or afflicted, or the Moon in like manner, for then the absent is dead. . .">>

Can you give the page in C.A. where you found this quote? I can't seem to find it.

Have you heard any news from the querent yet?

I spoke to the cousin of his wife the other day. She's in England and has had no word from her cousin or her aunt with regard to developments. She asked if anyone on the forum here had made any comments and I gave her a brief outline of everyone's ideas. She thanked me and said she would keep me informed of anything that she heard.

Thanks for the information Pam, it's good of you to take the time and I do appreciate it.

Cheers,
Pete

I decided to look at the horary again,fresh, and came up with the following... regio houses used.

starting with ...
I have a question, (I didn't see it mentioned elsewhere) is the disputed property west of the nieces home? I was thinking the mercury conj sun might suggest the man is being held near the disputed property.

Mars - is there a government/military type person involved here? being both 12th house (can be government as well as secret enemy, but mars as 12th house ruler really screams general to me. As in General of the army) whether the person is helpful or hurtful I dont know but is definitely between captive and captor.

another thing I see is that mercury is not only the man, but the money, which bodes badly for the captor ever really receiving it, but doesnt' give an indication of the man escaping.

I wouldn't say this to the people involved but the position of the moon and pluto do make me wonder if the man is alive or not even when the question was asked. Or possibly badly injured at a meeting and jupiter took him to hide his misdeed.

Jupiter's bad side is very very bad and a judgemental jupiter can be very nasty. not to mention jupiter is in his fall. to me this is a person who has had some authority in the past who has lost respect, credibility but not the arrogance of a once powerful person. Nice people dont kidnap and ransome others. it has the earmarks of a meeting that went very badly, and the captor trying to salvage something from it. (and who or what is saturn?)

if you take the moon not as cosignificator, but as the significator of the 3rd house, and as a discriptor of the incident...one can consider that the moons square of Venus was car trouble, that began the incident. mans car found abandoned. whether trouble was real or not, incident probably took place at car. then moon would square Jupiter, dispute with that person before sextile to Pluto, some detrimental health issue, then changed signs.

the moons next real contact is sextile to venus as moon is about to leave via combusta. If man is not dead, I would think this would mean he was recovering from injuries. and then sextile to jupiter, in some way they patch things up.

but I really dont like the horary at all, there are too many places to go wrong on this one I think. And in Horary the 7th represents the Astrologer as well and note the bad condition we are in!

Granny

Hi, Pete!

I took the quote from the site below:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Vh6jO2 ... #PPA405,M1

This is a version of Christian Astrology that is published and sold by David R. Roell. In David's version, it appears on page 405, under the questions related to the eighth house: "If the Absent Party be Alive or Dead?".

I'm sorry I don't have the pagination in the original CA for you. I hope this helps!--and the bold in the quote is mine, not the author's. Smile.
If your search included the words "Sun" and "Moon", the original typeset has the symbols and not the English equivalents.

Let me know whether this helps you find the passage or not.

Thank you so much for your update on the family of the quesited. They--and you--have all my best wishes.

Best,

Pam

Hi Pam,

thanks for the link. I found the page you mentioned in C.A., it was page
405, in the section on the 8th house. God alone knows how I missed that one! It's difficult to determine whether or not we can class the Sun as being "afflicted" by Mars, given that Mars is combust the Sun, which implies that Mars is in the Sun's power. The Moon however, *is*
"unfortunate", yet that is but one testimony of death and not enough, in my view, to judge the absent party dead.
I also found a very interesting passage on page 406, in the section
"Whether one absent will return or not, and when?". It's almost at the bottom of the page and reads: "If you find his significator impedited, see what house he is lord of that doth infortunate him; if he be lord of the
fourth, the man is detained and cannot have liberty...such configurations as these seem to impede his return."
Finally on page 407, under the section "The time when he will return."
we see this: "But if you asked "When will he come home, or when the querent shall see him?" then it is very probable, when both the significators come to conjunction, he will come home and the querent shall be in his company."

Now the only contact possible between the sig of the quesited - Mercury -
and that of his wife - Jupiter - is the applying conjunction from Mercury to the antiscion of Jupiter at 9 Sag', in 7 degrees. According to Lilly's guidelines this is the only way that the wife can be reunited with the husband. One degree beyond that, at Sag' 10, Mercury leaves combustion. I'm trying to make a case for the husband returning to the wife, safe if not sound, and this is all I can come up with. I agree it's thin but antiscion degrees were widely used by the ancients in their judgements and at the very least this chart may well show us whether or not they work, and if they do, how they do.

Cheers,
Pete

Hi, Pete

I'm like you, I'm looking for the silver lining in every cloud and the best possible outcome in every chart! Smile.

Thanks for the additional remarks. Yes, I had seen the "detained and cannot have liberty" as regards the fourth. . . but I thought you had, too, since we both came to the conclusion the quesited would not see his spouse again within the two week time frame of the question!

The chart just seems very clear about this, I'm sad to say. What it says about the quesited's return within two weeks, it says at least three ways, and I tend to believe that seals the judgment.

I also use antiscia to show an event quite frequently. Unless I see an obvious applying aspect or translation/collection of light between quesitor and quesited which makes the search superfluous, I look for them on every chart. I'd get way too many false negative answers without looking at the antsicia. Unfortunately for this question, however, I do not see applying aspects to antiscia to working out. It seems antiscia are narrow in their focus, although they work independently of applying or separating aspects between planets or even can bring events in a chart showing a Void of Course Moon.

How do you read Lilly on his instructions about the return of the quesited on page 407? Is there a reason why we wouldn't look for the conjunction between Mercury and Jupiter to show the reunion--apart from the obvious frustration of the intervening planets? Lilly says nothing about frustration, he just says "it is very probable" the two will reunite when both of the significators come to conjunction. How would we apply that? It would be outside the two week time frame, but it might give more closure to the question if we attempted to apply this method.

Thanks for your example of compassion and dedication in reading this chart.

Best,

Pam

Hey Pam,,
first off, apologies for the delayed reply. I've been busy with college-related stuff and a forecast I'm working on.

Yes, I had seen the "detained and cannot have liberty" as regards the fourth. . . but I thought you had, too, since we both came to the conclusion the quesited would not see his spouse again within the two week time frame of the question!

Actually I hadn't seen it. I came to my own conclusion based largely on the slow, cadent and fallen Moon. Moon

Unfortunately for this question, however, I do not see applying aspects to antiscia to working out. It seems antiscia are narrow in their focus, although they work independently of applying or separating aspects between planets or even can bring events in a chart showing a Void of Course Moon.

Can you clarify in what way you feel the application of Mercury to the antiscion of Jupiter won't bring about the sought after resolution? I agree that this is a tricky judgement, given that Jupiter rules 7th, 8th and 11th.

How do you read Lilly on his instructions about the return of the quesited on page 407? Is there a reason why we wouldn't look for the conjunction between Mercury and Jupiter to show the reunion--apart from the obvious frustration of the intervening planets? Lilly says nothing about frustration, he just says "it is very probable" the two will reunite when both of the significators come to conjunction. How would we apply that? It would be outside the two week time frame, but it might give more closure to the question if we attempted to apply this method.

Exactly, yes. This is precisely why I examined the antiscion degree of Jupiter at 9 Sag'. Mercury will reach it eventually, albeit after entering cazimi, then combust again, then conjunct the combust Mars. What intigues me about this whole process is that Mercury changes phase from a morning star to an evening star, then eventually becomes visible again after the conjunction with Mars and one degree beyond the conjunction with Jupiter's antiscion degree. I'm wondering if this is some secret, or covert handover of some sort? Will the wife (Jupiter) simply "see" her husband, rather than be reunited with him? Mercury may have left combustion but it is still under the sunbeams.

Oh by the way, I spoke to the cousin of the victim on Monday and she was able to confirm that the kidnappers claim to be with the Taliban, so it seems that my first declaration - that they had some fundamentalist religious underpinning - was right. Negotiations are still ongoing and the captors, as of Monday, refuse to lower their ransom demand.

Thanks for your example of compassion and dedication in reading this chart.

Thanks Pam, it's good of you to say that. I just wish I was more proficient dammit!!

Cheers,
Pete

Hi, Pete

Yes, your characterization of the captor (Jupiter, the planet of religious leaders) in Capricorn, the conservative sign is very apt. And there Jupiter sits in the religious ninth. Good call!

Let me see if I can tackle your question about antisica. I'm not the scholar of antiquity that some are on the list, so I will try to explain it to you as I have seen it work on the charts I have that perfected by antsicia.

An antiscion between one planet and another is an obscure (hidden)
relationship brought about by their simultaneous appearance on the degrees of the Zodiac which represent solar days of the same length. It does not occur, as an aspect does, because of the planet "casting rays."
From everything that I have seen, the planets need to appear simultaneously on the antsicion degrees at the time of the chart--or very close, within one and a half degrees, perhaps-- for the antscion to exist.

Planets apply to one another, but antscion do not apply, because they do not cast rays. A planet can cast an antscion, but an antiscion does not apply to a planet. A planet also does not apply to an antscion, because the two planets must be simultaneously on shared solstice points to be considered antiscia.

Arguing strictly from practice, perfection by application of one planet to an antiscion of another planet would produce a mass of false positive charts. We have had a lot of planets clustered in Capricorn and Sagittarius recently, for example. If we counted applying antiscia to perfect all the charts cast during this time, I'm afraid the results would be way off.

I agree with your statement that antiscia usually represent covert, hidden, or "back door" methods of perfecting the matter.

Here's Lilly on the return of the absent, from the eighth house material we have been discussing:

. . . if you are asked, "When he will come home, or when the Querent shall see him, then it is very probable, when both the significators come to conjunction, he will come home and the querent shall be in his company.

The conjunction of Mercury and Jupiter would give us the calendar date December 31 for the return of the absent party. Is there any reason why you would not select this as the date of the quesited's return? If not, why not?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

Best,

Pam

Yes, your characterization of the captor (Jupiter, the planet of religious leaders) in Capricorn, the conservative sign is very apt. And there Jupiter sits in the religious ninth. Good call!

Thanks. I got that right at least!

An antiscion between one planet and another is an obscure (hidden)
relationship brought about by their simultaneous appearance on the degrees of the Zodiac which represent solar days of the same length. It does not occur, as an aspect does, because of the planet "casting rays."
From everything that I have seen, the planets need to appear simultaneously on the antsicion degrees at the time of the chart--or very close, within one and a half degrees, perhaps-- for the antscion to exist.

In the past I have pretty much considered antiscion degree in just such a way, ie, (1) the two planets need to be in partile or close alignment and (2) antiscia cast no rays. However neither, by the same token, do the angles or the Part of Fortune, and yet Lilly has allowed planets to apply to these points in some of his horaries hasn't he, so my reasoning is, why can't a planet 7 degrees from an antiscion degree apply to it? Granted, ideally the application should already be in operation at the time of the question yet if if we just use the moiety of Mercury, which is 3.5 degrees, it isn't.

Planets apply to one another, but antscion do not apply, because they do not cast rays. A planet can cast an antscion, but an antiscion does not apply to a planet. A planet also does not apply to an antscion, because the two planets must be simultaneously on shared solstice points to be considered antiscia.

Hmmm, see *this* last statement I would question, for reasons that I gave above. That said - Mercury was not in orbs of the conjunction to the antiscion of Jupiter when the question was posed. I think that is the crucial point here: if a planet is within a few degrees of an antiscion and within the moiety of it's orb then the connection has been established and perfection can occur when the conjunction becomes partile. The antiscion is a sensitive point, just like the P.o.F. so logically the same guidelines should apply. Jupiter has a moiety of 4.5 degrees right? Does it's antiscion degree share the same moiety or not?

Arguing strictly from practice, perfection by application of one planet to an antiscion of another planet would produce a mass of false positive charts. We have had a lot of planets clustered in Capricorn and Sagittarius recently, for example. If we counted applying antiscia to perfect all the charts cast during this time, I'm afraid the results would be way off.

Wouldn't that depend strictly on the question posed and the rulerships, dignities, etc of the significators in each case? I see your point but look at our example: can we honestly say that we know for sure how the application of Mercury to Jupiter's antiscion will manifest, given that Jupiter has such multiple signification here?

The conjunction of Mercury and Jupiter would give us the calendar date December 31 for the return of the absent party. Is there any reason why you would not select this as the date of the quesited's return? If not, why not?

My immediate reaction would be to say because Venus got to Jupiter before Mercury will - on Dec 1st. This would be a form of "frustration", though not by classical definition as Venus didn't overtake Mercury to get to Jupiter. So maybe Venus just represents another influence not related to the querent which has no bearing on the next planet to reach Jupiter: Mercury. What do you think?

Is there any reason why you might consider the upcoming conjunction of Mercury to Jupiter as a possible release date? Do you think Lilly would consider it?

Thanks for your thoughtful responses Pam.

Cheers,
Pete

The why not is partly that Jupiter represents, the wife, the captor and the Astrologer, the 31st may well be an action date, but may not bring the action one desires. it is a date to be aware of.

Again I note that jupiter is not in the best shape and represents the astrologer as well as the captor.

Also in the chart you wouldn't count the date mercury conj Jupiter but you would use the timing conventions applied to the original chart to determine whether days weeks months etc would be conveyed by the transits.

Granny

Hi, Pete!

Thanks for your interest in the continuing antscion discussion. I understand what you are saying about Lily using planets applying to points like the ascendant or the midheaven, but I must confess I view antsica in a distinct fashion. I veiw antiscia the way you say you initally did: tight orbs existing at the time of the chart; no application factored in.

May I ask what changed your mind? This is a fine turning point in judging a chart, in my opinion. The antiscia are usually the final straw on my list of techniques to predict the perfection of a matter. When I have no antscia between signifcators or significators casting antiscia to the cusps of important houses, I pretty much see a "no" in the chart. And that is where I draw the line. We can go on splitting hairs and adding more and more outer planets and techniques, etc. but we must allow that sometimes (actually, often), the answer to the question is "no." And I have found these techniques to be very productive, in terms of leading to accurate predictions.

Nice to hear from you! I am examining the chart again to see if I can justify applying Lilly's techniques for the return of the absent person to the reunion of the quesited and his wife. The techniques stipulate "querent and quesited," not "querent and spouse. . ." I'm reminding myself that the querent is the sister of the quesited's wife. . . still considering.

Best,

Pam