Vindex wrote: could this implicate that Saturn in 12 is not so bad as he would be in some other house ?

I wouldn't say it's as simple as all that. Saturn in the 12th would mean that Saturn gets to act, where otherwise the planets in the 12th would be maltreated, as the domicile ruler acts inappropriately as a host, and would have trouble effecting their significations.

Vindex wrote: It is very hard matter to discuss because some use Koch some Placidus.

Well, that's the problem right there!
But seriously, I think all this confounding about differing house systems tends to lead one very astray, if not into skepticism itself.

Vindex wrote:
I can t find my sister in my chart if I look on Placidus.

I have Jupiter in 3 Aries - male sign male planet, but i have sister. Further more Mars as ruler goes to eclipse 0 south node 90 Uranus - my brother would be born dead at place. But i have only sister, my mom didn t have any miscarriage.

The determination of siblings is a bit complicated and totally escapes me at the moment. Going with Jupiter in Aries (in the 3rd I assume) as being automatically a brother is a bit simplistic. For a general take on this, usually Venus and the Moon gets sisters, though I forget which get younger or older sisters, if there is granularity on this topic.

That and take a eraser to Uranus while you're at it.

I have a 3rd house Moon (Placidus).. I'm not sure whether it has any effect or not, as it's in an out-of-sign conjunction with Saturn (4 degree orb) and an out-of-sign opposition to Jupiter (2 degree orb). I'm considered 'gifted' (a dubious thing) and writing has always been a very strong point with me; I can very easily convey things in writing (like feelings) that I find impossible to do verbally. This might be the Saturn influence, as I enjoy 'structured' thinking, and writing for me is easier because I can think about it first and then convey the feelings in a structured way. 'Off the cuff' speaking is anathema for me....but I have a 12th house Mercury (in Capricorn!), so my 'structured thinking' may in fact come from this.

Gunhilde

Olivia wrote:Okay. If you have 29 Taurus rising, by whole sign your first house is all of Taurus, with 29 marked off as the ascendant. Same as if you had 1 Taurus or 15 Taurus rising.

Whatever sign the ascendant is in, that whole sign becomes the first house, and on it goes round the wheel. The midheaven point is marked off, just like the ascendant is, but doesn't always fall in the tenth house. The ascending sign will ALWAYS be the first house, though.

Whoa, Olivia- I've got 29 Sag rising Asc, but the entire 1st house is Cap. Are you considering interceptions here?

In re: to 11th house Jupiter, my whole life I've had the 'gift' of being able to have such familiar rapport w/total strangers, that whomever is 'in tow' remarks; "where'd you meet them?" -People I don't know make admissions to me in the freezer aisle of the supermarket, etc... it's kinda neat. It also seems to make me appear places at seemingly auspicious times for others. Occasionally I indulge in wandering. Peculiar, but in a good way. It's in Scorpio, btw.

As far as that 1st house Merc? That's fun too. Sometimes, I won't even know what's to be revealed till it comes out of my mouth. Unnerving. It's caused others from time to time to give me more credit than I've deserved! I'm able to communicate w/people who don't speak the language (or either of us poorly). Expression & communication are fun. I especially enjoy when I have to work at it.

I'm surprised Mars in the 5th isn't considered a 'Joy', it has been to me. That's in Taurus. A smile should suffice.

I hope I've been helpful![/i]

In re: to 11th house Jupiter, my whole life I've had the 'gift' of being able to have such familiar rapport w/total strangers, that whomever is 'in tow' remarks; "where'd you meet them?" -People I don't know make admissions to me in the freezer aisle of the supermarket, etc... it's kinda neat. It also seems to make me appear places at seemingly auspicious times for others. Occasionally I indulge in wandering. Peculiar, but in a good way. It's in Scorpio, btw.

This is interesting. I have the Sun in the 11th and Jupiter in the 9th (so they are 'transposed', I guess, in terms of joys), and I have the same sort of experiences: strangers tell me things in the freezer aisles, etc. It's useful in my line of work!

Gunhilde

I'm going a little off-topic here into retrogrades/stations so I do apologise, but it didn't seem worth a new thread

Olivia:

It is retrograde, which might be part of it, but still rings in at 11 on the essential dignities scale if we're counting.

Retrograde planets tend to "shoot the wrong way", as Frawley has it! Generally speaking, they do not provide positive results. I have found that it is often a case of "taking back its significations" as GR put it: something happens which appears good at the start, and then it is either taken away, or turns nasty.

A similar interpretation seems to be true for stationed planets, from what I have experienced. A person I know has Jupiter in the 7th - Great! you might think. But it's stationed. And in Taurus, so even more "stuck" (and lacking essential dignity), as Taurus is a fixed earth sign noted for its stubbornness and immovability. It has brought mainly malefic results, through romantic relationships which have ended up as various combinations of unpleasantries, from alcoholism through "he's married but..." right the way to verbal and (in one case) physical abuse. Certainly an example of a planet "taking back its promises", or perhaps even "fulfilling the promise, then twisting/destroying it".

Back to the topic: I have found one example of Mars in the 6th, in Capricorn. Mars (21 Cap) opposes Mercury in Cancer (29 Can), while the Sun is very wide (4 Can). Sextile Jupiter (22 Pisces). Mars is retrograde, -0'11 per day and accelerating. This chap's immediate persona is most decidedly un-Martian, the Moon in Pisces most likely ensures he could never be He-Man! He does seem very well-balanced in his Martian qualities such as assertion and confidence however; not the entirely wet weekend which would be suggested by the Sun/Moon signs (no offence to forum members of those signs; I myself have the Lights in Pisces/Cancer ). So perhaps Mars in the 6th is able to act more strongly, almost as if it were angular, as mentioned by GR. The exaltation probably helps, too.

Keren

*chortle* "Wet weekend". I suppose mine (Sag Sun/Aries Moon) would be "a real scorcher".

Just a note on the retrogrades: I have Saturn Rx in my 3rd (OOS conj. with Luna). I would definitely agree with 'shoots the wrong way'. Saturn Rx so close to my Moon made me, especially when I was young, almost morbidly sensitive. I had the misfortune to have a (what I perceived at the time to be) hypercritical grandmother, and I took EVERYTHING she said to me on board. It's taken a few years of therapy to get rid of the feeling that I am perpetually incompetent. If the Moon were in the 3rd by herself, I have a feeling I would have a far less sensitive nature, at least in the negative sense, although the thinking/feeling combination of Moon in 3rd would still be there. I had to learn to grow a thick skin.

GH

Just use the real one, Mark. I'd say by whole signs, neither planet is in its joy. The basic idea from the Hellenistic works is that a planet in its joy gets to act as if it is 'fit for business', basically it behaves if it were angular, so if happens to be in a cadent sign, this can be mostly ignored.

Hi GR,

Sorry for the delay replying. I should have fessed up earlier that I started using whole sign houses some time ago so the choice was one I was offering others not myself.

I know this will appear a bit provocative to some but I take the view that as the entire notion of 'joys' was developed using whole sign houses the later application of the idea to quadrant houses is a complete misuse of the original basis of the concept.

I only have one: the sun in 9th house. My natal plant, sun in Scorpio in 9th conjuct with uranus and close to MC, so I have to accept lots of unexpected chance to my life. And I agree that these chance give me some joy, also some bad feelings. I have find lots joy for My venus in Libra~

I have a good friend who is the mercury in 1st house. I thoutht she is a kind hearted person, but she is always expressing her mind with strong feelings. Sometimes it will hurt other people, cos she is too sensitive, and over emotional...

maybe these place for people can find joy in my opinion

1. moon in Libra, or in 5th house. A good place we could communicate with, and these people has a lot of funny ideas and thoughts, and they
are likely to share their joy with friends.

2. venus in Libra~~ a good teacher for beauty things. delicious food, fashions, or any other informations related to entertainment, and so on.

3. good aspect between moon and venus, maybe trine is better I guess.

4. And also Jupiter in Leo.

Thanks~~

I have a 9th house Sun in Leo. The Sun rules my midheaven, and he is also widely opposed by my 3rd house, retrograde, Aquarius Saturn. This is using Placidus houses.

I really like being in school. I feel most myself when I am taking some type of class, especially if I am working toward a degree. However, I have also had struggles and disappointments with my education. I have two advanced degrees; there was a third advanced degree which I began but did not finish for various reasons. So, while I am naturally attracted to 9th house activities, Saturn has put a damper on things, too. I guess that having the Sun in his joy isn't enough to overcome other issues in the chart.

My ex-husband had Mercury in the first house. Communication was definitely very important to him, but I would not say that he was especially good at it. He often told me that he really valued open communication in relationships. However, he had a tendency to interrupt me all the time, usually while insisting that I was talking too much and I needed to give him more time to talk.

Based on these two experiences, I would say that a planet in its joy really really "enjoys" expressing itself through the operations of the house--perhaps even feels compelled to do so--but it is not necessarily "better" or stronger than it would be anywhere else in the chart.

Based on these two experiences, I would say that a planet in its joy really really "enjoys" expressing itself through the operations of the house--perhaps even feels compelled to do so--but it is not necessarily "better" or stronger than it would be anywhere else in the chart.

Good point. This is the conclusion that I am coming to as I read these posts. The whole thread has been very insightful. Thanks folks.