Hello Skyscripters,

New here. Lots of interesting comments and food for thought.

I'd wager that Chart #3 done somebody very wrong. Saturn as the highest planet square three or more planets is a troubling configuration often found in charts of murderers. Admittedly, the square is a bit wide to some of the planets, but add the involvement of the 8th house, Saturn, Mars angular and four other planets in signs of malefics (total six of seven planets in signs of malefics, in this case Scorpio and Aquarius) increases the odds. I decided to go with the square because the aspects from Mars and Saturn completely contain the four Scorpio planets. Mars in Aquarius has been called 'slaughterer of men'.

There is testimony of more than one aphorism for imprisonment, for example Mars in the 7th in a malefic's sign square a luminary.

Great exercise, thank you Tom.

Cassie

I also think that it would be best to try to look at the quality of mind, that is the ruler of the Ascendant and Mercury (Abu ?Ali Al-Khayyat: ?When you want to know the habits of mind of the native, look at the lord of the ASC and at Mercury??; Masha?allah: ?A chapter for knowing the native?s will. Look to the Lord of the Ascendant and Mercury (who indicates concerning the native?s way of speaking)??).

Chart #1 doesn?t look very bad. The Asc ruler is Jupiter, fallen Mars in Cancer sextiles it, but the aspect is separating and there is reception. Benefic Jupiter in fact improves the nature of Mars. Mercury is in its own sign on the 9th divisional cusp. Venus, a benefic, is probably the planet that has most dignity in the places of those two planets. So, no serious alarming signs.

Chart #2 has the Asc ruler Venus in its fall and in the 12th house, but it makes no applying aspects to the malefics. Also the Moon is separating from both of the malefics. A separating aspect indicates fear that doesn?t actualize.

In Chart #3 The Asc ruler is the Moon, but it?s in aversion to the two malefics, so no harm from there. Mercury is in a sign ruled by a malefic (Scorpio) and it retrogrades, so it?s less good, but it has dignity being in its own bound, and the movement is away from Saturn and towards Jupiter, a benefic, so I (a bit hesitantly) rule out also Chart #3.

Chart #4 has several exalted planets! That doesn?t rule out of it being a chart of a murderer ? I would say that the person has certain unstability and high idealism ? but exalted Sun on the MC and exalted Venus on the 9th cusp plus that the Asc ruler the Moon and Mercury are not deeply engaged with the malefics? no, I wouldn?t say this is the chart we are looking for either.

My guess is Chart #5. Though it has exalted Jupiter on the Ascendant, it retrogrades, and violent, Martian fixed star Pollux is nearby the Asc/Jupiter combination. What's more alarming, retrograde Saturn throws an antiscia on them, the antiscia degree (19 Cancer) being between Jupiter and the Ascendant. Mercury is ruled by aforesaid Saturn, moving away from reception, and what's worse, it?s retrograde and combust, so it?s not in a very nice condition.

Talking about fixed stars, there is also Algenib culminating, and Robson says here: ?Of the nature of Mars and Mercury. It gives notoriety, dishonor, violence, misfortune, and denotes the naked and poor professional beggar.?

It will be probably the chart 4. Why ? Because they are always the ones you don?t see it coming

The problem Tom is that there is one killer to only 5 charts... soon it will become, how do I say "like shooting fish in a barrel" (?)

The sense of sport quickly fades

There are all kinds of murderers and reasons for murder; hate, passion, jealousy, not to mention just being plain deranged! Many murderers are nothing more than a plain joe or jane until that one trigger sets them off. This is a difficult one!

This is true. This is also why the infamous New York Suicide study discussed in detail in The Moment of Astrology didn't produce the results astrologers hoped for. The idea was that suicide is a singularly personal event and therefore there should be something common in the charts of suicides that would enable the astrologer to spot them. They couldn't.

The problem is as Steven states about murder, that people don't commit suicide for the same reasons or even the same few reasons. Therefore the charts would not be what the astrologers hoped for.

So the question is are there characteristics in humans that make them more likely to commit murder for whatever reason than the general population? I think there might be one or two. However just because someone is more disposed to murder than another, doesn't mean they necessarily committed murder.

So lets post some details:

The murderer in the list is not a serial killer like say Ted Bundy, who killed for sex thrills, or never captured Zodiac Killer of California. The murderer did not kill a spouse in a fit of passion. Let us further stipulate that the murderer was a criminal prior to the murders.

Does this change anyone's position? I'll hold off for a few days so you can gather your thoughts.

Also unless there is a burst of enthusiasm for dragging this out, I'll reveal everything all at once.

Also let's not lose sight of the fact that the exercise is intended to be fun. Whether or not anyone gets it right for whatever reason, says nothing about astrology in general or about the skill level of the individual. As I said in the first post, I'm not sure that astrology can do this sort of thing. So relax and enjoy it.

Tom

Hi Tom

There still seems to be some interest here, so I'll let it go a bit longer. If you're thinking of participating, get moving on it.

Here's my answer quickly (before you reveal it). My first glance impression is to suspect chart no 4. I will now go and write up my reason and put it in the next post.

Great fun
Deb

I rather liked the idea of you eliminating the charts one at a time ? I thought that would add to the fun of this.

I made that last post quickly, before reading your final comment (above) and of course we all have to realise that we are participating in this with blindfolds on. There is no bog-standard ?profile of a murderer?, and knowing whether the murder was pre-meditated or not makes a huge difference to the sort of things I would look for. (Was this someone who couldn?t cope with pressure? Was this person inherently selfish and coldly destructive to anyone who stands in his or her way? This could go on and on ? )

The reason I chose no 4 is because I?m assuming that this murderer is likely to be a wilful person and I have noticed that the most wilful people usually have planets (especially luminaries) close to the angles (I think about the emperor Nero who ? if I?m remembering this rightly ? had his Sun rising on the ascendant). Also, I think Mars would have to be figured into the angles or the luminaries, so I like the way that the ascendant-ruler Moon is in the first, but most importantly, Sun is exalted (oh so self-centred) on the MC, on the square of Mars.

Now I have submitted my thoughts please tell us straight away what the answer is Am I right? Am I wrong? I can?t bear waiting to know the answer to these kinds of mysteries

Hi Tom,

I have reconsidered my position over the weekend!

Jupiter rising chart is very hard to reconcile with everything the 17th century sources describe about Lord of manners and as its appears to be Lord of the geniture too I think it probably counterbalances all the other negatives. If this is the chart it certainly puts some traditional ideas under pressure.

I have decided to return to my original instinctual first choice of Chart 1. Not precisely for reasons Steven gives but my own. The rising degree in Sagittarius on the sting of the scopion seems to crop up in a few murderers charts. Although the degrees at the start of Sagittarius near the head of the scorpion are even more prominent in such cases.

In addition the Moon in debilitated reception(?) with Saturn in Chart 1 is something a little similar to what I recall seeing in at least one murderer chart before. The presence of the debilitated Moon ruler ( saturn) in the 8th house ( whole sign) which the Moon rules seems quite telling.

Going on fixed stars alone chart 4 is looking bad too and scores highest on this front. However, I dont see the rest of the chart supporting this.

An excellent selection of charts by the way. Not an easy exercise at all.
This was really fun. Its seldom you get to test yourself in such a clear cut way in natal work. Thanks for doing this

Mark

Hi, Tom

I also think, the Horoscope #4 is it.

AS must be an active sign = cardinal
Cancer 25 is close to a critical degree
Sun 14 Wid is on critical degree
Sat 20 Tau is on critical degree
Mars 13 Cap is on critical degree
The Nodes in 8/2 (!) House also close to critical degree.

Mostly I am conform to the reading by Deb!

Wolfgang