You know, I have Lord of the First in 10 and Lord of the Second in 1. And I'm dirt-poor. I wasn't always, but I've never been really rich either.

L1 is Jupiter, but L2 is Saturn, though they're both well-dignified and in good aspect to each other. Venus disposits Jupiter and is my LoG (and very well-dignified essentially, but in House 3 - grrr - or House 4 by Whole Sign). Still, when I'm not busy breaking bones or having other accidents or illness (which seems to take all my money, and I'm only able to work part-time now because of it), I never have had to look for work - people always come to me and ask me to work for them.

Even now I get by because I do part-time work for people when they ask me to, but I never got a job by looking for one. It's always been the other way around - people asking me if I'll work for them, or doing work on my own and people want to buy it.

But hey - I want the money that Jupiter in 10 and being L1 is supposed to bring! I have got a fair amount of honours from working, but that doesn't pay the bills.

Johannes:

And the 6th house (the native`s skills) [. . . ]
This sentence is very astonishing and sounds post-classically . . .
Is this really Robert Zoller?

Yes it is definitely from Zoller. He explains somewhere in his course that in the past people had their slaves to do the unconvenient work for them and the slaves had the skills to do that. Now that we have no slaves anymore, we have to do these things by ourselfes. This is the reason for him why he delineates the 6th with the native`s work, service and skills. At the end of Lesson 6 in his Diploma Course he gives an example: ??if the Sun is in the 6th house for example, the native is going to receive recognition for his/her skills and service and work.? Additionally the 6th still has the meaning of servants and small animals, minor illness etc.

Now I found another example from Zoller.

He gives an example chart:
- Mars conjunct Venus in the 2nd
- Aries on the cusp of the 9th
- Scorpio on the cusp of the 4th
- Capricorn on the cusp of the 6th
Jogi, are these the facts Zoller is giving or do you outline his example chart?

Yes of course these are exactly the facts given by Zoller.

By the way: This IS an example we are trying, isn't it?

It is one, yes. But I thought of the kind of examples that Olivia gave us.
Examples from our charts or from the charts of clients (of course anonymous) etc.

Olivia:

Masha'allah said that if the ruler of the second house is in the rising sign one will gain profit and wealth without effort, but if the ruler of the rising sign is in the second house, one will work hard to pursue money...'

I understand this the same way Morin teaches it: L1 in 2nd: the action goes from the native to the money, he strives for money, money is his main motivation and he will work for it. Allthough Masha'allah does not mention the nature and dignity of the planets involved. If it is Jupiter in good dignity the native will have success; if it is Saturn in bad Dignity the native will fail and stay poor. And this is the same that Zoller teaches according to the 1st house.
L2 in the 1st means that the action goes from the money to the native. It is not the natives motivation to earn money but it comes to him if L2 is Jupiter and it will not come if L2 is Saturn in bad zodical state.
This is how I understand it.

You know, I have Lord of the First in 10 and Lord of the Second in 1. And I'm dirt-poor. I wasn't always, but I've never been really rich either. [...] ...I never have had to look for work - people always come to me and ask me to work for them.

What you describe here sounds exactly the opposite of what Morin and Zoller are teaching ? at least for me. Because I would say that due to L1 in the 10th you should look for jobs, you should search for jobs. If you had L10 in the 1st your description would fit better. The same with L2 in the 1st: money should find you, particularly with Jupiter >>> It is Saturn = see my correction in my next post - SORRY.
What signs are on the cusps of your 6th, 8th and 12th ? And where are their rulers? Because when L2 is in the 1st it could mean (for me) that money goes to your health (= 1st house), i.e. you spend money for your health. When L2 rules one or more of the above mentioned houses (by sign, exaltation, triplicitiy or term) then illness is also an issues connected with money. That`s the way I would see it.

In Zoller`s terms I would say that the realization of your 2nd depends on Jupiter in the first. Jupiter then shows the source / origin of your income = you are the source of your income, you have to do something to earn money, you can only rely on yourself when it comes to financial issues and earning money. The second part would be the question if this can be realized. And this depends mainly on the essential and accidential dignities of Jupiter in the 1st. You would have problems with a square or oppostion from Mars/Saturn to Jupiter as L2.

The second term would be the outcome. What results from the 2nd house and it`s connection with the 1st house. In Zoller`s words: ?The placement, natures and zodiacal state of the rulers of the 2nd will tell you where the financial needs will lead. In a sense, each of the rulers of the 2nd is offering help.?

So far my thoughts.
Maybe one (or more) of the forum members that already finished Zoller`s course could give us some hints or deeper explanations - I`m not sure, but I think Steven Birchfield studied under Zoller?

Best wishes
J?rgen

Olivia wrote: But hey - I want the money that Jupiter in 10 and being L1 is supposed to bring! I have got a fair amount of honours from working, but that doesn't pay the bills.

Hi Olivia,

perhaps it comforts you, that - with Morin - Jupiter is perhaps the general (natural) significator for wealth (among other things), but in your horoskope the special significator for money is Saturn, lord of your second. And Saturn even if he is well dignified, will - with Morin - never be as fortunate as Jupiter.

Johannes

Uuups - I mixed it up totally. Johannes - thank you for the hint and sorry to Olivia

You`re completey right. But nevertheless, with Saturn in the 1st as L2, Olivia is the source of her income (due to Zoller). But Saturn`s nature leeds to difficulties with money, he will generally take. Because of his nature he is more likely to show expenditures for Olivia`s 1st house (i.e. Olivia - her personality, her body etc. - is the reason for spending money) - Jupiter would have shown more success.

Sorry for the confusion I raised. I think it`s always better to have the whole chart in front of oneself.

I can post the chart if you promise not to use it curse me It's in Regiomontanus houses - http://36cards.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/chart1.jpg

I like the way both Ibn Ezra (he goes into more details, obviously) and Masha'allah explain it. You still get the whole picture, including understanding why a certain rising sign will bring X, Y, and Z events (because if you have this rising sign, then you don't get on with your siblings, you cause your own death, you argue with scholars, etc. based on the signs on the other house cusps), as well as going into more detail on the malefics and benefics in different houses and what they mean.

It may just be me having a hard time with Zoeller's writing (though I defer to the native English-speakers), but it seems like he takes complicated concepts and he writes so obscurely that he complicates them even more.

Zoller's main point, I believe, was that the rulers of a house will work according to their own nature to produce what is signified by the house. So the first thing to consider, in the case of a planet ruling or in the 2nd House, is whether it has a natural analogy to wealth or expenditures.

Saturn or Mars connected with the 2nd have a stronger analogy to losses and expenditures unless they are in very good cosmic state, and even then, any wealth produced would come, with Saturn, after delays or by hard work and from Mars, with strife and conflicts and effort.

If Saturn rules the 2nd and is in the 7th, money would be spent or lost through marriage, partnerships or lawsuits. If he was in reasonably good state, possibly wealth through these same things but later in life.

If Saturn ruled the 7th and was in the 2nd, it would have a similar signification, money lost through marriage, lawsuits or partnerships. Or, if in good state, money gained through the same things but always with delays or difficulties of some sort.

The key difference, I think, would be that in the first case, ruler of 2nd in 7th, the native would seek to acquire money through 7th house people or concerns whereas in the second case, ruler of the 7th in the 2nd, 7th house people or matters would come to affect their wealth without the native seeking them.

Saturn, ruler of the 2nd in the 1st, as in Olivia's chart; expenditures (Saturn) come to her due to accidents (Saturn sextile Mars). Mars in the 2nd ruling 11th, friends (11th) produce occasions to make money (2nd) but given Mars nature and its sextile to Saturn, the money earned with effort (Mars) is spent (Mars) on physical needs.

In all cases, what is produced hinges on the nature and quality of the planet. The house the planet rules indicates what the planet is trying to produce, the house the planet is in indicates the area of life in which the planet is trying to realize the matters signified by the house it rules. The planet, by its location, also has signification for furthering or hindering what is promised by the house it is in.

For example, in Olivia's chart, Saturn, as ruler of the 2nd, is producing expenditures and, in the 1st, the expenditures are on physical or bodily conditions. At the same time, Saturn in the 1st is making the life (1st) difficult and reducing its enjoyment. So Saturn is harming the life primarily by producing unfavourable and expensive problems with the physical body.

jogi wrote: Quote:
And the 6th house (the native`s skills) [. . . ]
This sentence is very astonishing and sounds post-classically . . .
Is this really Robert Zoller?

I know a number of traditional astrologers argue that the 6th is not related to the native's work; however, this is not a modern invention. There are classical references indicating the same, specifically, in Paulus

"In this place {6th} the star providing one's work becomes active, as long as it has brought rays to the midheaven by degree, because the place is harmonious with the midheaven pivot by its position in a right triangle." Paulus, p46

And Firmicus, although he doesn't specifically mention work,
"sometimes the unfavourable influence is removed if a planet in this house {6th} is in favourable aspect to a planet in the 10th" p48, XIX

The same holds true for planets in the 2nd, if they are connected with the 10th in some manner they can have significations for 'what one does'.

Hi Olivia,

now your statements show their astrological or perhaps better: cosmic origin. But fisrt of all I would like to know why you see both Jupiter and Saturn well dignified?

Johannes

Janeg, I would like to discuss your comments very much, but please tell me beforehand whether they were all 'Zoller' (what I assume, because you mention only his name) or 'Morin' or a 'mixture' of both? The argumentation would be a lot easier then.

Johannes

Hi Johannes ... they are probably a mixture based on my understanding of what Zoller teaches and my reading of Morin

Hi Janeg,

nearly everthing you wrote so accurately meets exactly with my own understanding of Morin's teachings. So I suppose that all I don't agree with completely, is a part of Zoller's teachings. As I'm very interested in all concerning Morin, I would like to learn whether Zoller, whose book on Lots I read, is really leading beyond Morin.

When you write:

If Saturn rules the 2nd and is in the 7th, money would be spent or lost through marriage, partnerships or lawsuits. If he was in reasonably good state, possibly wealth through these same things but later in life.

is this your own understanding of Morin or more that of Zoller, as I assume, because Saturn as signficator for old age is only a by Morin not so preferred general signficator?

The key difference, I think, would be that in the first case, ruler of 2nd in 7th, the native would seek to acquire money through 7th house people or concerns whereas in the second case, ruler of the 7th in the 2nd, 7th house people or matters would come to affect their wealth without the native seeking them.

Even though your statement is in exact congruence with Morin's own statement according lords one and ten, which I quoted in this thread above, I would not really accept this as a strict principle with regard to the total of Morin's own explanations in Book XXI. of AG in reference to this theme.

Do you think, Zoller would accept a more neutral definition of how the signification of houses ruled and kept by a planet is to combine, for example like this:

Accidentally the ruled houses are sometimes the 'causes', sometimes the anticipating or foregoing accidents of the accidents accidentally formed by the house and the universal cause and power of the dwelling and ruling planet in both their co-operation, and vice versa - but ever the meanings or significations of all involved houses are to be connected in a reasonable way with the planet and its status coelestis.

Johannes

johannes susato wrote:Hi Olivia,

now your statements show their astrological or perhaps better: cosmic origin. But fisrt of all I would like to know why you see both Jupiter and Saturn well dignified?

Johannes

Hi Johannes -

Mostly because of the receptions, though Saturn is in its own term and face.

Jupiter and Venus in generosity, Jupiter and Saturn in reception by exaltation and ruler, Jupiter and Mercury in reception by triplicity. Jupiter's in 10, which is a good place for it, not sure if we can give it a conjunction with NN (maybe), but that's a mixed blessing, anyway. And Jupiter is in its own face (if it were that alone, eh, but it's got some other things going for it, so I'll toss it in).

Saturn is in 1, which is not so great, but it does have reception by the ascendant ruler, and it's in two of its own minor dignities. So it's not in as good a shape as Jupiter, but it's not really bad, either. (I've seen some horrible Saturns in my day - this isn't one of them.)

They're both oriental, and Jupiter is correctly placed by sect.

ETA: I tend to put Mars in 3, not 2, but I think there may be some 'spillover' in that one - it's the only planet that doesn't like to go with the 5 degree rule - or even the 3 degree rule if you split it 7/5/3 for angular/succedent/cadent. Maybe because Mars and Saturn are co-almutens of 2 (that'd account for some money problems, at least off and on during life).

For Jogi: I ran it in Alcabitius for you, and nothing changes house - they charts are near-identical, strangely - or perhaps not?

Anyway, if I run it through the Dorothean dignities, Jupiter gets 11, Venus gets 11 (and is Lady of the Geniture), Moon gets 7, Saturn and Mercury each get 3, and Sun and Mars are both peregrine at -5 each - which seems about right.