Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hi ninotchka7 and others,

The techniques of predicting the different parts of life using the three triplicity (trigon) rulers seem to fall into 2 contradicting methods:

1. The Hellenistic method (Schmidt, Brennan and others who follow them)

According to them (and they argued persuasively) that ancient Hellenistic astrologers divide life into 2 parts. The first trip lord of the main luminary governs the first part of life and the seond trip lord governs the second part of life. The participating Lord assists both. They also claim that there is a method to calculate/estimate the changeover from the first to the second.

2. The medieval method (The Arabs, Bonatti and many of us!)

They simply divide life into three parts, the first trip lord of the main luminary governs the first part of life, the second trip lord governs the second part of life and the third trip lord governs the third of life.

Persuasive are their arguments (the first) but somehow in my practice, I find that the second (medieval) method gives better results.

Anyway, if you are interested in Valens method, the angularities (house positions) are key to use in this method. Valens also said that the ruler of the trip ruler can also contribute to the corresponding phase of life (see his last statements in the same chapter that he discusses this method). AND (more importantly) he also said (in a different chapter on Lots), angular houses relative to the Lot of Fortune can be more active than angular houses relative to ascendant (horoskopos) - more mystical (in his terms). We can surmise that angular houses relative to ascendant (horoskopos) are "active" in putting the native to the limelight in life (making him/her "busy" in life) but not necessarily receiving the full benefits of what life has to offfer. He/she might be working very hard and doing what he/she does best (effective) but somehow receive less than he/she deserves. Angular houses relative to the Lot of Fortune brings events that befall the native (be them positive or negative) to the native making them sometimes receive recognition and power (though probably not through their own making). Of course the whole chart will have to be analyzed properly.

Using Whole Sign house system, Egyptian terms and Dorotheus/Valens triplicty lords,

Martha Stewart Chart:

The luminary in sect is sun (for a day chart) and the sun is angular (whole sign).

The three triplicity (trigon) lords are Sun, Jupiter and Saturn.

Sun is located in the 10th house (from Asc) and in the 6th house (from Lot of Fortune). The dispositor of sun is sun itself.

Jupiter is located in the 8th house (from Asc) and in the 4th house (from Lot of Fortune). The dispositor is Mercury in the 9th house (from Asc) and in the 5th house (from Lot of Fortune).

Saturn is located in the 7th house (from Asc) and in the 3rd house (from Lot of Fortune). The dispositor is Venus in the 11th house (from Asc) and in the 7th house (from Lot of Fortune).

If we use the Medieval 3 parts of life = 3 trip lords:

The first part of life is governed by Sun. Sun in 10th house (from Asc) definitely tells us that Martha would have a very busy life during her first part of life. She would be doing a lot of things that will be effective though she might feel that she did not receive all what she worked/hoped for because the period is not so fortuitous because sun is cadent relative to Lot of Fortune. The fact that sun is so strong in Leo also tells us that her life is very much affected by strong male figures in her life (her father and husband - both can be represented by sun in a day chart).

The second part of life is governed by Jupiter. Although Jupiter is in the 8th house (from Asc, which is considered a house that diminishes the benefics in it), it is in the 4th house relative to Lot of Fortune. This means that although she might do unproductive or foolish things (an 8th house Jupiter), she would still be lucky and have a fortuitous life (luck is on her side) due to the angular position of Jupiter relative to Lot of Fortune. This is enhanced due to Jupiter being the domicile Lord of Lot of Fortune! The dispositor is Mercury. For Mercury to assist Jupiter, Mercury must be configured with Jupiter (aspect, etc.). Jupiter and Mercury are in mutual generosity (to use the Medieval term of mutual reception with no aspect) - Jupiter in Mercury's domicile and Mercury in Jupiter's exaltation. There is no aspect between Mercury and Jupiter but they are in signs that are in antiscion - so they are not in complete aversion to each other. Mercury can then give benefits to Jupiter. Mercury is in the houses that trine both Asc and Lot of Fortune (which can bring benefit to the native).

The third part of life is governed by Saturn. Although Saturn is a malefic, it is in sect in both Hellenistic (Saturn in sect in day chart) and Medieval definitions (Saturn is in the hemisphere of the sun). Hellenistically Saturn (in sect) and angular can still give benefit though he can still give problems (due to his natural malefic tendency). Is her life fortuitous? Not so, as Saturn is cadent relative to Lot of Fortune. Venus (dispositor of Saturn) does help as she is in trine with Saturn. Quite a co-incident to see that Saturn (natural ruler of limitation/restriction/rejection) is also the exalted ruler of the 12th (relative to Asc) and domicile ruler of 12th (relative to Lot of Fortune) - and the relation to her imprisonment. Like you said though, Venus does help her Saturn with the trine aspect (with angular Venus from Lot of Fortune and in the 11th from Asc).

Of the three periods then, Sun and Jupiter seem to be her best periods though I would vote Jupiter's period is better because it is angular with Fortuna and Lord of Lot of Fortune (making life extremely fortuitous) esp. in terms of money as Jupiter is domicile Lord of Lot of Fortune, domicile lord of 2nd house (relative to Asc) and domicile lord of tenth from Lot of Fortune. Why the more emphasis to places relative to Lot of Fortune? Because, (1) Valens said so and (2) usually people relate success to material benefits or things that are more "material" - which is the domain of Lot of Fortune.

Astrojin -

Thank you for taking the time to go through the chart. Yours is exactly the kind of reply I had been hoping for.

The use of houses relative to Fortuna makes sense to me, especially since we are looking at Stewart's advancement in the world and acquisition of wealth. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge - this is another method I can investigate.

To your comprehensive analysis, I would only add two things:

1. The second third of Stewart's life was assisted by Mercury partly because it was in the 5th sign from Fortuna. My understanding is that the 5th can be very efficacious - do you have thoughts on this?

2. The 11th can be very important for financial gain as well (c.f. Valens 2.21 who calls it the "acquisitive place"); in Stewart's chart, there are no planets in Capricorn, but I wonder if this makes her last third of life less financially problematic than if Saturn did not rule the Acquisitive Place, especially because Venus is assisting from the 11H. Again, any thoughts you have on this are most welcome.

Nina

Hello Nina,

1. The second third of Stewart's life was assisted by Mercury partly because it was in the 5th sign from Fortuna. My understanding is that the 5th can be very efficacious - do you have thoughts on this?

Yes. I do agree with you on the 5th house being a good house but I still have this Medieval bent in me that I must not have the dispositor in complete aversion to the planet it is assisting. A domicile dispositor of a planet can assist the planet if the dispositor is configured with the planet. Configuration can mean whole sign aspect or like engirding signs, signs of equal power or signs of equal rising (as long as they are not in complete aversion). The dispositor can then assisst the planet (dispositor can be seen as the back-up planet or its support where the main planet can fall on to in times of need). Hellenistically, the dispositor should also be the sect mate.

2. The 11th can be very important for financial gain as well (c.f. Valens 2.21 who calls it the "acquisitive place"); in Stewart's chart, there are no planets in Capricorn, but I wonder if this makes her last third of life less financially problematic than if Saturn did not rule the Acquisitive Place, especially because Venus is assisting from the 11H. Again, any thoughts you have on this are most welcome.

Yes. I also agree with you on this. It is probably better to have a benefic ruling the 11th from Lot of Fortune (or better a benefic in 11th from Lot of Fortune) and not Saturn (a natural malefic) who is also ruling the 12th from Lot of Fortune!

PS: However, Saturn as domicile lord of 12th from Lot of Fortune and exalted ruler of 12th from Asc can also mean acquisition (Saturn is Lord of 11th from Lot of Fortune) from clandestine activities! (as Saturn is connected to the 12th from Lot of Fortune as well as Asc).

Great delineation of Stewart's horoscope, Astrojin. I think this kind of analysis will become a standard procedure in my future delineations. I've learned a lot.

Thank you very much astrojin for your brilliant expos?.

Although there's one thing I can't figure out in the "Third part of life" section: how can Venus in Virgo (it's fall/depression state) offer any help to Saturn?

Is it's angularity relative to the Lot of Fortune enough to give it some strenght to help out Saturn?

Thanks for any thoughts on the subject.

james

Hi Nina and others,i must confess that i made an erroneous statement,when i wrote that a planets in detriment was not a concept used in Hellenistic astrology.
According to a recent text that i've read from Schmidt,the hellenistic only not nominated the condition of a planet in opposite home as "detriment",but this position was viwed as malefic ...
I'm sorry,i made a confusion - in my group of study we all had the same erroneous conclusion based on our readings of Valens texts.I must to return to the readings more carefully...
All the best
Gerson

Hi Gerson

Is it possible for you to give us the reference for this? This matter was recently discussed in another thread so it will be interesting to look at this more closely.

Thanks
Deb

According to a recent text that i've read from Schmidt,the hellenistic only not nominated the condition of a planet in opposite home as "detriment",but this position was viwed as malefic ...

Hi Deb,the discussion can be finded at:

http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 9&start=30

We can read it in the third paragraphe of Schmidt's reply,on Decembe,31.

The question remains very tricky,because for example in vedic astrology(that seems inherit several features of hellenistic astrology after Alexander's invasion on India),there's not detriment.Mercury in Saggitarius,for example, is not viwed as a malefic position because aspects Gemini,his opposite house,therefore helps Gemini...very,very tricky...
All the best

Gerson

I think there is a problem with that link because it leads to a thread started in March, not December. But I thought you meant that you were aware of a reference in a primary source, which is what I would have liked to check for myself. That was what I prefer to investigate, rather than someone else's take on the matter.
Thank you anyway Gerson
Deb

Sorry,i mean March,31.
It's difficult to find a main source about it,even Schmidt itself does not presents an explicit statement,only an inference from Valens text.

Gerson

I did look through the thread anyway, but somehow missed that before.

I agree with what you are saying here, and that we tend to see it by implied reference rather than explicit statements. I gave an example as demonstrated by a chart from Rhetorius in the 'peregrine' thread earlier in the year. You can find the details here:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 2&start=11

Obviously, I would be interested if there were any explicit statements to this effect in the early texts!

Thank's Deb, a very informative discussion.I'm also waiting to find an explicit statement about this matter, a kind of "Rosetta stone".
I liked your willingness to question the basis of astrological premiss,we can learn a lot from it.
All the best
Gerson