CentralScrutinizer wrote:Hello,

Maybe someone can explain.

I don't get the difference in whether the person is alive or dead having any fundamental importance relative to rectification and/or the confirmation thereof.

Example:

If Bob is still alive and we take the events of his life up to this point and rectify his chart. Using that rectified chart, we see corresponding aspects with several events later in his life. (whether it is predicted or not is irrelevant, as either the symbols are correct or they aren't)

Now, if Bob were DEAD, and we took the events in his life up to 1990 and rectified his natal chart and used THAT to correctly "predict" many events from the remaining 12 years of his life post 1990, what is the difference?

Alive or dead, predicted or not; if the SAMPLE events lead to a rectification and that rectification then fits appropriate symbology to other events (not used in the rectification) in the life. How is that not the same confirmation?

James

James:
The main problem is in the word "fit". You and I know what that means; we know that only in primary directions in Topocentric system there is perfect corresponding of the appropriate symbolism to the event with very small orbs and that we never use one event and never use only one system. No matter how our primary directions are perfect, we always use other systems for corroboration. The problem is that other astrologers claims that in their methods, be it other system of primary, solar arc, profections or whatever, there is a perfect corresponding and the event "fits" to the aspects in the system they are using.
In my post from 20 May in the thread on James Randi, I gave 10 events with the primary directions in Topocentric for Prince Charles and ask if someone can find out other system that can produced appropriate aspects with so small orbs, using any other rectified birth time (but of course it must be close enough to the recorded birth time). The question of orbs is very crucial. See in Alexander Marr's article "How exact must we be" (in Prediction III).
But most astrologers don't want to learn our methods.
So, what is the solution?
1. As Tom stated, predictions is the best way to prove the correctness of rectification but many astrologers think that once we have a precise rectified birth time we can easily predict. It is certainly not easy at all and I already discussed this point.
2. The best way of course is that the after the rectification was published, the birth certificate will be found out. If one day the birth certificate of MJ will be published, if it will fit my rectification. +/- some minutes that will be a strong proof, and if it will not fit, I will not hesitate to admit in failure. No one is infallible.

Responding to a number of comments in this thread

Labalance

Worth emphasizing are a few points that Steven made.

1. A birth certificate time presented to the exact minute is likely to be robust and requires little or no modification by rectification.

If a birth certificate is presented with a time not rounded off to the nearest half hour, like yours at 6:24 AM, it is probably highly accurate. Any error is due to clock error or recording error. These issues can be magnified when Mercury is retrograde at the time of birth, Mercury is combust, or malefics fall in the 12th house which describe the conditions immediately prior to birth which can be indicative of problems in delivery. Without any of these conditions, the 6:24 AM time should be fairly solid, perhaps off a minute or so. If off by a small bit, you should notice a consistent pattern that projected event dates mismatch actual life event dates by roughly 3 months per each minute the time is off (using solar arc directions). With primary directions, it will depend on whether the Ascendant falls in a sign of long or short ascension. Generally speaking, Ascendants of short ascension like Pisces are more difficult to rectify because the Ascendant moves very quickly and is extremely sensitive to the birth time.

2. Any rectification must match the precise delineation of the significators and promittors to the directions (or any other dynamic method) proposed.

The modern tendency to accumulate a large number of ?hits? to the angles without specifying how those directions might match the delineation of the significators is the hoodoo of many modern rectification software modules. In addition, not all events are shown by directions to the angles. Dynamic activity to the lots can cause significant life events without any measurements to the angles. See my post in the separate Rectification Challenge thread for examples of this.

3. Any rectification must be tested on an out-of-sample basis.

For living clients, I prefer to test a rectification for a year before declaring it sound. You can see an example of out-of-sample tests applied to the nativity of Obama on my site to get an idea of how this works. If the rectification proves wrong, then go back and try again.

James/Margherita/Steven

On the relevance of rectifying historical figures. People familiar with my work know that I spend a lot of time working on historical figures. Like everybody learning astrology, I am interested in studying accurate charts. I have been disappointed at quality of Rodden AA rated charts; finding as many as 10-15% of them to have the incorrect Ascendant. So I started working on charts of American Presidents to develop a research database. Also because nobody had ever made an attempt at rectifying the American Presidents with traditional methods.

I agree with Margherita that before techniques can be reliably applied to existing figures (for clients and others) that they need solid confirmation. While one can test past event of living clients and others; studying rectified historical charts offers another perspective.

As Steven mentioned, choosing to study ?celebrity? charts poses special risks given the ability of the media and celebrity handlers to manage celebrity reputation. But I see this much less of a problem for heads of state for whom multiple biographies exist (at least in the United States). Or just use a well-defined critical biography on anyone. There are thousands available. Then there is the considerable amount of time required to study historical figures. It?s been a luxury afforded to me which is practically unavailable for many astrologers dealing with clients on a full-time basis.

James mentions testing rectifications for historical figures by basing the rectification on events up to a certain cutoff date, then using the balance of life history in an out-of-sample test. That?s very logical and an acceptable practice. Occasionally, one can go farther and test rectified charts for deceased individuals against current events. I listed a number of examples of posthumous events in the Afterword to A Rectification Manual which demonstrate this possibility. More recently I have been working through charts for American spree killers. In several cases, I found that dates of movie debuts on the subject of the killer released after death were often timed by directions/transits of planets/Nodes to the MC degree.

Mithra6

Regarding Lincoln?s arcus vitae. You might be interested that rechecking directions for American Presidents with the completely revamped Janus 4.2 primary directions module that the following Saturn-Moon direction emerges:

23-May-1865. Saturn (lat=0) c. => Moon (lat=0). Method of Ptolemy

This is 5 weeks late but if you look at other latitude permutations, you can also find:

5-Jan-1862. Saturn (lat=Saturn) c. => Moon (lat=Moon). Method of Ptolemy

Using the primary direction sequence concept, Lincoln basically had an active Saturn-Moon primary direction for the duration of the Civil War. Switching to Regiomontanus or trying other latitude options yields similar results. War exhausts anybody. As an astrologer looking at this in advance would have predicted extreme melancholy/depression during this time period. Photographs of Lincoln taken during these years demonstrate a marked physical deterioration.

In addition to the Saturn-Moon direction detailed here; also active was the sinister sextile of Mars directed to the Sun by converse motion. Depending on whether one uses Ptolemy or Regiomontanus with various latitude options, the projected due dates of this direction range from 3-Sep-1863 to 10-May-1866 with one of the Regiomontanus directions due 26-Apr-1865. This is an error of 11 days. Note for this direction the Distributor will either be Saturn/Sagittarius or Mars/Sagittarius depending on the latitude option for the Distributor.

Then there is the Venus-Moon direction which I propose is the most accurate arcus vitae because it times assassination within 5 days. Moon is the hilaj; Venus signifies the actor/assassin Booth.

You raise the question of predicting death for Lincoln in advance because Venus was not the high scoring killing planet. Predicting longevity is a difficult question but one starts with the Al-kadukadah which for Lincoln which is roughly 57 years depending on how one handles the contribution of years by Venus, if any. He died at age 56 years 2 months 2 days; this is a fairly accurate result for Lincoln. Zoller also mentioned that individuals whose Al-kadukadah is Saturn rarely live beyond 57 years, or if they do to prepare for an above average level of health problems.

In missing Venus as the high scoring killing planet, recall I used the 8th house, the 8th house sign ruler, and the 8th house triplicity ruler when constructing the al-mubtazz table. Please note I mention on page 516 of A Rectification Manual that had one used the 4th house instead of the 8th house when constructing the al-mubtazz table Venus would have scored much higher. I chose to stick with the 8th house because I found better results over a larger sample. Zoller taught to use the 4th house in his course. In general you will find differences of opinions on methods for constructing al-mubtazz tables; even whether they were or should be constructed at all! I am the first to publish several dozen examples of the arcus vitate with fully worked out al-mubtazz tables for killing planets. Once I have computed 200 of them, I will have another look and may tweak their construction. But this is what I am using at the present and the results are fairly robust. Also keep in mind that when either Node is placed in the 8th, it often trumps the high scoring killing planet as the empirical killer. Then there are situations when either luminary directed to the angles can kill (such as the Moon directed to the Ascendant).

The bottom line is that the al-mubtazz table I present for killing planets is a model and it is not infallible. We also need to focus on the Directing through the Bounds technique; an important tool which for all practical purposes has only been available through software releases in the last few months. I am speaking of Morinus and Placidus. Janus has also completely revamped their primary directions module and plans to add the bounds as Distributors in a future software update.

You might also be interested in learning of the thesis advocated by Dr. John Sotos in 2007 that Lincoln suffered from a rare genetic disorder named multiple endocrine neopasia, type 2B (MEN2B). Sotos claims this condition would have killed him had he not been shot. I claim no expertise in medical astrology, yet note that Venus/Aries rules the 6th of illness by whole sign houses. Venus is assigned to the neck which houses the hormone-producing thyroid. It is possible that Lincoln's afflicted Venus was responsible for the medical condition proposed by Sotos. Separately, it would also go along way to explaining how an oriental Saturn could still produce Lincoln's skinny appearance; a feature inconsistent with the additional flesh on the body promised by an oriental Saturn. This is a topic which came up when discussing Lincoln's temperament on a separate thread. If Sotos is correct, then an oriental Saturn/Sagittarius might have given Lincoln a body which was initially more fleshy; but Venus/Aries as a significator for hyperthyroidism (my speculation) could have led to weight loss and Lincoln's skinny physique.

Gabe

On Venus/Aries as a significator for the actor/assassin John Wilkes Booth rather than Saturn as you suggest. Am curious as to your reasoning for Saturn as significator for an actor. I have not seen acting listed as a professional significator for Saturn. For Venus, this is fairly easy to find taking Lilly for example who lists ?players? as one type of person signified by Venus.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/venus_att.html#9back

I interpret ?players? as ?actors/actresses? and stand corrected if I have misinterpreted Lilly?s English. For Lincoln, Venus falls in the sign of Aries, a male sign, in the 5th house of pleasure. I delineate Booth as a male actor which was a source of entertainment for Lincoln who also happened to kill him. Then there is the nativity of Booth himself (b. 10-May-1838 no time) which recapitulates the placement with Venus in the 4th degree of Aries.

RegulusAstrology wrote: Gabe

On Venus/Aries as a significator for the actor/assassin John Wilkes Booth rather than Saturn as you suggest. Am curious as to your reasoning for Saturn as significator for an actor. I have not seen acting listed as a professional significator for Saturn. For Venus, this is fairly easy to find taking Lilly for example who lists ?players? as one type of person signified by Venus.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/venus_att.html#9back

I interpret ?players? as ?actors/actresses? and stand corrected if I have misinterpreted Lilly?s English. For Lincoln, Venus falls in the sign of Aries, a male sign, in the 5th house of pleasure. I delineate Booth as a male actor which was a source of entertainment for Lincoln who also happened to kill him. Then there is the nativity of Booth himself (b. 10-May-1838 no time) which recapitulates the placement with Venus in the 4th degree of Aries.

Admittedly, I'm getting this from Valens, who lists Kronos (Saturn) as governing those who have a false appearance, which actors, by pretending they are other people, are doing. Ptolemy, of course, has to complicate this by giving actors to Mercury and Venus when they both signify the actions of the native, and this signification is again confirmed when they are both testified to (applying by aspect or conjunction) Saturn.

As for Venus in Aries, I would think more likely a fanatic, in Boothe's case, someone who seeks to purify (Venus) through public execution (Mars). So maybe the use of Venus as a "Destroyer" is not unwarrented, though it would be more genuinely malefic if she were a lord of a bad place or maltreated by the malefics.

Admittedly, I'm getting this from Valens, who lists Kronos (Saturn) as governing those who have a false appearance, which actors, by pretending they are other people, are doing.

Gabe, could you give the reference? You could be right but I'd like to check for myself whether he means actors (by profession) or liars (by character).

Thanks for all the information on your rectification methods H.

And a thanks from me Dr H.

Hi Deb,

Of course I'm right.

The particular phrase is ????????????? ??? ?????? ??????? , located in Book I Chap 1 of the Anthology. about 4 lines in on page 2 of the Kroll edition http://books.google.com/books?id=s9dZ-T ... lr=&pg=PA2 .

One way of reading it could be "they who would appear to play a part", and that first word, which gives us the English word hypocrite, is based on the Greek word for an actor. But being in the Greek language, I would assume that simultaneous meanings are likely.

Of course I'm right

Of course. How stupid of me to express myself in a manner which could suggest otherwise

But I do think - personally - that the text is talking about the quality of being a hypocrite, rather than the profession of acting. I'm interested because the idea of being in the entertainment industry or making a career as some sort of 'showman' doesn't seem very Saturn-like.

Thanks for taking the time to give me the ref I asked for.

Deb

Thanks Regulus! That was a very clear description. Only Uranus and Pluto in the twelfth, but my Mercury is retrograde. So perhaps it is off a bit. I'll have to learn a bit more and try some of these techniques.

Deb, I would agree about the 'showman' part not being Saturn-like, probably more Mercury-like, but that an actor is not a showman, per se. Confluent but differing skill sets, IMO.

But it's probably something more complicated than only one planet may provide.

You're welcome!

Moon-Mercury? Or Venus Mercury? Or Venus Moon? I can see all those fitting, one way and another.

It seems I've been able to zero-in on birthtimes of OBSERVED births by using this formula.

Has anyone had any success with this? I'm skeptical of using it for anything else, but I have gotten a good picture with births I've seen.

It was in a book that came across my lap...I forget which one. I wrote the formula down in a notebook.

Couple of comments to wind this down

Gabe said:

"As for Venus in Aries, I would think more likely a fanatic, in Boothe's case, someone who seeks to purify (Venus) through public execution (Mars). So maybe the use of Venus as a "Destroyer" is not unwarrented, though it would be more genuinely malefic if she were a lord of a bad place or maltreated by the malefics."

Dr. H. => I agree with your characterization of Venus/Aries as purification through public execution. Booth appears to have had a strong choleric streak as evidenced by his skill in on-stage sword fighting. The Wiki reference indicates he was known to have cut himself on occasion.

By whole sign houses in my rectification, Sag rising, Venus rules the 6th of slaves. Venus also separates from Saturn and applies to Mars who rules the 12th. Though the aspect is wide, Venus/Aries does oppose Mars/Libra; both planets in detriment in what Bob Hand described as 'mutual deception.' Venus is definitely maltreated here.

LaBalance

Let me give you an example of what can happen to an apparently accurate recorded to-the-minute birth certificate when Mercury is retrograde at the time of birth. Here is an example I mention in A Rectification Manual, p. 291. For a birth time of '5:32 PM' the actual rectified time was 5:22:30 PM. My guess is that the presence of Mercury-retrograde caused the recorder to reverse the digits from 5:23 to 5:32. The rectified time was within one minute of the posited 5:23 birth time incorrectly recorded as 5:32. Please note I am not suggesting that you flip the minute digits in your own case. I am just giving an example of the kind of error which is possible when Mercury is retrograde at the time of birth.

Now there is obviously some speculation here on my part which others may or may not agree with. But the bottom line is that if you want to use directions as a predictive technique then you need to experiment with rectification because the projected event date from a direction moves roughly 1 year for every four minutes the birth time is in error.

Also keep in mind that there are many other robust predictive techniques like Fidaria, Directing by Triplicity, and Profections which do not require split second accuracy. Sometimes in a quest for an accurate birth time (for directions) we lose site of these other techniques which can prove just as powerful as directions in prediction.