My rectification based on 30 events is:
Radix: 29 Aug 1958 23.29.06 CDT Asc 10 Gem26'
Epoch: 22 Nov 1957 11.53.53 UT Asc 18Sco39' Moon 10Sag27'
Primary directions in Topocentric system for his death 25 June 2009:
VIII 0 MC R/R 1'
XII 0 MC R/R 1'
Nep 60 MC E/R 5'
Nep 120 MC R/E 6'
Nep 45 MC R/R 1'
Plu 45 Sat E/E 2'
Sat 135 VIII R/E 1'
Secondary:
Moon regress 180 Nep 18'
Mppn 120 Pluto R/R 6'
Asc 60 Sat E/E 1'
XII 90 Sat E/E 6'
PSSR:
Ura 90 VIII E/E 1'
Mer 90 VIII R/R 6'
Mars 60 Sat E/E 2'
Mer 0 Sat E/E 2'
Moon 120 Mars R/R 8'
Moon 120 Sat R/E 14'
Moon 180 Ura E/R 16'
Moon 180 MC R/R 14'
SN 135 VIII R/R 3'
Transits:
Pluto 0 VIII 8'
SN 150 VIII 46'
Saturn 150 MC 54'
SN 90 Nep 56'
Saturn 180 Moon 40'
Converse transits (3 Nov 1907)
Neptune 150 MC 30'
Uranus 150 Asc 50'
Mars 180 Ura 36'
Lunar return: Uranus exactly on Asc and Pluto conj MC
Converse lunar return Saturn 180 MC
In the solar return, NN exactly on MC of the solar conj. Neptune, Moon conj IC
In the quarterly solar return for 27 May 2009 Pluto exactly on Asc and Mars on IC.

Tom,

Let me check my notes when I get home later

Regards

Matt

I like the time from Isaak Starkman. The time is also correspondening with the time from Dykes.
When I am looking with this (his) technic and also with medieval one, so there are some interesting points:

in the Greek Solar (for the year 2009) is Mars, Saturn and the Sun in the 8 H. AS Sign is the same as the 8H Natal.
In the normal Solar for this year (2009) is Uranus on the Solar MC.
The Transit Saturn is opp. the Natal Moon, which is also Hyleg (Ptolem?us) and Alchocoden. Two times the short period of Moon is 50 years (of live)

In the Prof. the yearly is 5? VI next to the sun. The monthly one is in Mars terms, the daily is 18? next to the Moon!

Primary is Sun converse opp to Mars (Sig.) with the Hit-day April 12 2009.

Wolfgang

Primary is Sun converse opp to Mars (Sig.) with the Hit-day April 12 2009.

I just got back from two grueling weeks at the beach, so I haven't had time to work with this very much. I did look at the nativity (11:53 pm chart) looking for an early death without much success at this point. Mars is the exaltation ruler of the 8th (Placidus and Regio) posited in detriment in the 12th. Mars squares the ASC ruler and Venus ruler of the 12th. This is a good indication of nasty 12th house stuff (secrets etc), but it does not imply early death, or I don't think it does.

The other possibility that I'm throwing out without any real enthusiasm behind it is this: Mars opposes the empty 6th house. Morin taught that planets have influence over the affairs of the opposing house particularly if it is empty. The 6th is accidents and there are rumors, there are always rumors, that Jackson may have died accidentally. Foul play is not suspected at this time but an accidental overdose of demerol administered by a physician may be part of the reason for his sudden death. We'll see.

Tom

Thanks, Mr. Starkman, for your analysis. If one regards Uranus as a very precise timer in rectifications (viz. Hammerslough), there might be some evidence for making it a tad earlier--something like 11:36 pm--by using it with the chart of the infamous Pepsi commercial where Jackson was burned--an event which was seminal in his subsequent life and appearance.

Something sudden was likely to happen to Jackson at that time because a month earlier (Dec 4 1983) there had been a solar eclipse at 12 Sag, conjunct Uranus. As it happens, that would be very close to most rectifications' Descendant for Jackson. On the day of the commercial filming, t-Uranus, which had just crossed the point of the eclipse, made contact with that Descendant. Using Uranus as a timer, that would indicate a Descendant of something like 11:28 Sag and therefore an Ascendant of something like 11:28 Gemini. Around 12:36 or 12:37.

Regardless of the time used, this would be a very sensitive area as it is, since Saturn sits close, at 19 Sag.

However, I will point out that Fearington's rectification made years before Jackson's death, works very neatly with the chart of his death, with Saturn making a partile square to the (23:53) Ascendant, and closely opposes the natal Moon and squares natal Saturn.

the Vedic chart really supports the 11:53 birthtime, however, the 12:45 is a much stronger natal chart.

the dasa period for the 12:45 time would have been a fruitful time for him recently, but as we all know, he hasn't had an easy time of life in the past few years.

I'm new to the forum, thanks for having me.

I really don't know how well Vedic Astrology is accepted here, but here goes...

Interestingly, Mercury is a detriment planet, in the East and the West, as I've read here.

Mercury is the lord of the eighth from the Moon for the Taurus ascendant for the 11:53 chart in the Hindu (sidereal) system. Mercury is also the 2nd lord in the chart, a maraka, or death/hardship indicator, along with the seventh house lord. (odd for such a songbird, i think, to have Mercury as a detriment) The fact that Mercury is in the 4th with the Sun in Leo cannot be overlooked here. His heart gave out.

The operating dasa at the time was Ketu(south node)/ Rahu(north node)/Mercury...this is an extremely time-sensitive calculation, but we are all going on an assumed birthtime. In MJ's navamsa, or nine-fold divisional chart, Ketu is in the eighth house, with Rahu in the 2nd, Virgo, ruled, of course, by Mercury. There is a 'health' issue; and clearly there is an exacerbation by the 'foods' or 'medicine' he was taking. Look at his 11th house: bad friends, 'doctors', his own will as to who he kept close. He had problems but he had the resources to keep people who 'fed' his 'will' close to him. Although he loved children, Jupiter was a 'problem' for his life, evidenced by Jupiter in the sixth as the twelfth from Saturn and opposite Mars, in his own sign, in the twelfth...legal problems and debts accordingly.

The main problem i have for the 1153 chart is the inactivity for the first house, be it aspect or otherwise. The lord of the first (sidereal) is Venus and she is in the 3rd with the third lord, Moon, in the 10th. She is aspected by square, or Mars' aspects, and Ketu, by trine, but still a detriment (which will explain the skin issues, nose too). Okay. That leaves us with only a Saturn aspect to the first house. As huge as he was, really? Just a Saturn aspect and 'possibly' a Rahu aspect to the first house. Really?

This comes up in the John Lennon chart as well. ASC or DSC as ASC?!! MJ's 12:45p chart is stronger natally, but EVERYTHING else supports the 23:53 chart.

I'll stand by the 23:53 chart as long as I do astrology. It SPEAKS to me. Astrology after the fact is just speculation anyway. I'm also, I guess, as a person who saw the debut of 'Thriller', after 9pm, on MTV, just trying to make sense of the fact that Pop culture will ultimately eat itself and not apologize. Rightly so. We as the world asked for it. The formative memories we have ultimately will implode...

thanks, kyle

Kyle,

Would you mind briefly defining the term operating dasa so I could compare it with western methods?

Thanks

Matt

Hi
I have been looking at MJ's charts working with the 11:53 birthtime. Tom, you say that the angles in solar return are virtually identical to his natal. I cast his solar return for LA and get 17 cancer on ASC and his natal has 16 gemini on ASC-did I cast my SR chart wrong?
His hyleg is the moon[Bonatti] and it is his profected Lord of the Year, inconjunct his natal moon which is square natal saturn which is the ruler of his 8th house as well as it being the ruler of his Solar return[if I got it right] Would this be a strong enough indication of death?
I cast an event chart for his death at 2:26 in LA and Mercury is at 15 gemini in the 8th house [His natal ASC is 16 gemini] and it is square Saturn in 11th[death by a friend?]
Im seeing hints at his death but I have not yet found the definitive clue! Look forward to seeing what you all see

Hi... this is my first entry so be gently with me...

Far be it from me to throw yet another time into the mix for Michael Jackson's TOB, but I had been working on 10.00 (Gary time). Gives an Asc of 19.36 Libra and an MC of 23.07 Cancer.

At first I thought this crazy... but think about it. Venus, chart ruler, conjunct Uranus denoting Jackson's unusual dress sense... and the conjunction being in Leo, suggests his penchant for gold garb, royal clothing, heraldry, golden braid etc. Also being in Leo, worth noting his child-like qualities. Remember too, he was known as the King of Pop (Venus-Uranus in Leo!) On a health note, the Libran Asc gives his the potential for issues surrounding his back, lower/lumber region which I beleive he had. Chart ruler of Venus generally gives a fair skin tone, which clearly he contrived to achieve (conjunct Uranus trine Saturn.... ground breaking even!) Note also that this timing put the Venus -Uranus angular in the 10th.

Secondly the MC, yes one would consider Cancer inapporpriate, but he did come to fame in the Jackson 5 - part of his family. The Moon in the 5th house of performing/arts. Note also that the MC is conjunct the Fixed Star of Pollux which Robson describes as "Honour and preferment, but danger of disgrace and ruin". (FS pg 186)

This timing would also put Neptune (and Jupiter) in the first. Clearly this suggests his hugely compassionate and altruistic nature. Whether one acknoweldges (or believes) what he did or did not do with children, one cannot ignore his deeply spiritual outlook, and if anything he was clearly lacked judgement and whilst he was gullible, and prone to decepetion, one cannot ignore that he was probably in reality kidding himself most of all. On a more practical level... Neptune in the first... yes suggests the glamour, the make-up but also the mask. (which he literally wore!) It would also suggest his links with drugs, whether prescribed or other. Note also that the Moon in Pisces by Antiscia will conjunct his Asc... undoubtedly giving him his sensitivity, and an affintiy with his public.

I would also mention that this time does put his Asc and Node applying to Spica, which I will leave you to examine. Both Ebertin and Robson suggests riches beyond wildest dreams...

Thirdly, this timing brings a grand trine of Chiron, Hygeia to the Asc in Air.. suggests his extraordinary inventive even genius, but not without pain and lessons.

These are all just points which I came to on examining his chart. Clearly there are lots of different times out there.. but believe me Scopio rising he ain't.