I?d like to say I can see the chart differently now, but I can?t ? can you?

No, I can't see an outright 3-0 win to England in this chart. But then I don't think astrology works all the time anyway - if it did we'd all be rich! Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Or, as someone once put it, the gods don't always let us eat at their table. Of course I don't like getting a prediction wrong; I'd much rather get it right but, even then, I sometimes wonder if it's just coincidence. To be honest, I don't think it really matters all that much. I enjoy doing it and, if I get it right....well, that's just a bonus.

My husband is showing off because he predicted that result ?using nothing more than common-sense?

How irritating But that's why I wonder if it's just pure chance when astrology gets it right.

? but he says it was a poor match really, with a lot of ?nervy? action.

Yes, it wasn't a brilliant match and most seem to agree that the scoreline wasn't a true reflection of the game. The Swiss played well but they just couldn't score and, at the end of the day, it's goals that count.

Well I was hoping for a draw

Well, the other match (Croatia v France) was a draw. What I said about the England match seemed to apply more to that one!

Perhaps the chart explained the type of game rather than the score. Are there any teams that are easier to predict?

I'm not sure. If we look at symbolism, rather than using hard-and-fast rules, England as the Lions would be shown by Leo, which is on the MC - "the honour of winning" (Geoffrey Cornelius). There are so many different ways of looking at a chart. As I said earlier on, I've yet to find a method which works consistently.

That of course would make england one of the most difficult teams to predict as they usually underachieve.

True, they are very unpredictable. And I think the Moon being in Gemini didn't help - very tricky. I generally found it unreliable in horseracing too. And perhaps the angular Neptune added to the confusion - I don't know.

Or the mood of the country and the effect the result has on it may be another factor - eg no one in England was excited that they won?

Well, Deb said that's the method she uses and it sounds like a good one to me. There is more than one chart for England, and for London. Which ones do you use, Deb?

Hi Ficina,

Sorry for the delayed response, I?m a bit overwhelmed with other projects at the moment. I generally use the 1066 chart for England and the 1801 chart for the UK. But if the transit chart is clear I don?t always compare it to national chart. I don?t like trying to assign the favourite to the ascendant. I much prefer it when you get a situation like the England v Australia Rugby cup held in Australia, where you can assign the ascendant to the home team.

I can?t find the details for the time and location of tonight?s kick-off. If someone posts them I?ll try to pop the chart in, although I realise I?m cutting it fine now.


Happy viewing for tonight

19.45 BST kick-off in Lisbon tonight, 14Sag20 Asc.

Another fairly nothingy chart so far as I can see, and I'm not altogether clear why I'm still interested in this when it seems fairly evident that the group stage charts don't work as reliably as we'd all like them to.

Having said that, I'm pinning my hopes on the Moon moving to trine antiscion of Jupiter (and not having enough time to sextile ant. Mercury) as showing that England will squeak home 1-0. What's that saying about drowning men and straws?

John Frawley once mused that what Charles Carter called the 'law of subsumption' might be at work in the group stage of competitions like this. If I ever get some of those long winter evenings when you do things you've always meant to do, I'll take a look at the different ways it might be possible to combine charts for individual games in the tournament with a chart for the start of the whole tournament.

Despite the Moon-Neptune opposition (aimlessly kicking the ball around without any clear sense of purpose? oh no, that's the definition of football in general), I think the match will be lively. MC-ruler, Venus, on the descendant and contacting Jupiter (the big prize) by retrograde action bringing surprises. Descendant ruler Mercury applying to the trine of Uranus, bringing bombshells.

I'm sure that the team signified by the 7th house will win:)

Deb wrote:Despite the Moon-Neptune opposition (aimlessly kicking the ball around without any clear sense of purpose? oh no, that's the definition of football in general)

Deb wrote: I think the match will be lively.

Lots of goals?

Deb wrote: I'm sure that the team signified by the 7th house will win:)

Which team?

Well I am not so good at predicting these games but I think England might sneak through after a tense final few minutes.

What an exciting evening.
A double-billing of Coronation Street.!!
Les Battersby was brilliant.

I didn?t watch the football but I heard it
The 7th house Neil, was England, but unfortunately using this technique I have to know the result before I can make an accurate assignation of significators

Right, I think we need to get serious with the next match - someone post the data as soon as its available.

It's Lisbon again, 19.45, Thurs 24 June. Portugal v England.

Bet365.com makes Portugal slight favourites, which seems reasonable (except, perhaps, for the 'slight') plus as the home side their case for grabbing the Asc is strong...

I don't think there is any merit in assigning the 'favourites' to the ascendant. Apart from the fact that it's often hard to decide who the favourites are, I'm not sure where the idea came from. Does anyone know who introduced that idea?

In this chart the Moon is separating from the square of angular Pluto as its last aspect in its current sign. But it's already in orb of its sextile with the 8th house Mars in Leo and the square of the Sun. It looks like it will be a very powerful and hard-fought match with a lot of pressure and conflict. Since the Moon signifies 'the masses', I hope it's not pointing to crowd trouble, though it seems to be a difficult night with tensions running high.

Deb wrote: In this chart the Moon is separating from the square of Pluto as its last aspect in its current sign. But it's already in orb of its sextile with the 8th house Mars in Leo and the square of the Sun. It looks like it will be a very powerful and hard-fought match with a lot of pressure and conflict. Since the Moon signifies 'the masses', I hope it's not pointing to crowd trouble, though it seems to be a difficult night with tensions running high.

The masses - Portugese fans?
Powerful? - How is that likely to show in the way the match goes. Anyone?
Crowd trouble? It is England - most likely. Although it may happen if they win or lose.

So are we are looking at a hard fought draw full time and a silver goal or penalties?

Just a thought - Is it possible to see what factors are influencing matches from examining previous charts when the results are known and find out who will go through to the next round?

I thought your prediction Deb was spot on for the last match.

Ah, I can?t take any credit for what I said about the last match because I skilfully avoided saying anything at all. The only thing I was confident about, was that there wouldn?t be a draw.

Bear in mind I?m only making a very general assessment of the astrological mood for the time of the match. I was interested in how the old Moon in the England v Switzerland expressed itself because according to traditional lore, you don?t gather great public interest in events held at a new Moon. The mood here for that match was very subdued, I reckon, compared to the first match, but I suppose we were somewhat on a downer after the last minute turnaround in England v France.

Many of these matches are starting with Sag-Gem on the asc-desc and with the planets falling into the descendant at the end of the match, showing powerful and dramatic action at the end of the game. Eg, the England v France match started with Pluto opposite the Sun and the Sun hit the descendant at the end of the game, bringing the full force of that opposition into play at that time, turning the game around, and leaving everyone emotionally stunned.

You mentioned that you thought last night?s game would be tense at the end and I expected that there would be a burst of energy with goals scored towards the end of the match for the same reason ? the Sun hit the descendant around 9:00 pm and minutes before and after this goals were scored.

In this next match the Moon is square the Sun, which brings tension and dis-ease, and its besieged between Pluto (or Saturn if you ignore Pluto) and an 8th house, essentially debilitated Mars. I take Pluto rising to show a lot of powerful emotional energy focussed upon this game and with the Moon so tense I?d expect this would erupt into trouble and aggressive responses both on and off the pitch. Like I said, this is all a very general description of the backdrop against which the details take place. I?m hoping to look at this combined with other charts before the game actually starts and if I can start gathering details that reinforce a sense of confidence I?ll make a prediction later.

Just a thought - Is it possible to see what factors are influencing matches from examining previous charts when the results are known and find out who will go through to the next round?

That?s an interesting thing to do if you have the time to do it. Unfortunately my desk is piled high and I can?t give this the attention I?d like. But I'm going to get ready for the world cup

Deb wrote:Ah, I can?t take any credit for what I said about the last match because I skilfully avoided saying anything at all. The only thing I was confident about, was that there wouldn?t be a draw.

Well not many games have lots of goals so a lively match (ie lots of goals or shots on goal) that was a good prediction on its own.

If the next England game is a tight hard fought affair with lots of aggro then that will be a good prediction too (although IMO quarter finals tend often to be tighter, semi's less so and the final well i think it depends how those teams played in the tournament as a whole how the game will turn out.)

You didn't commit to England I assume because it was not obvious which team was the 7th house. I wondered if you had a gut reaction to which team that was at the time?

It would certainly be interesting to see if there were any consistant clues that were missed.