JulieYvonne wrote:

Rx is only a small part of the planets zodiacal state

I disagree strongly. I believe mercury, venus and mars are profoundly altered by retrograde status.

My point in this is that even had Mars been Rx, it has absolutely no relationship to the matter at hand and what was being started.

Surely you see the problem here? You offer an electional chart to prove mars Rx had no effect, but mars wasn't Rx. I don't understand how this chart supports your theory. In your chart mars is separating from saturn in the 12th house. Perhaps if mars had been moving back to conjunct saturn and perfect the square to jupiter we would have another marital story.

I can't comprehend the idea that mars has "absolutely no relationship" to beginnings, no matter what they are.

Julie, sorry for being blunt, but that's probably because you do not understand traditional astrology's most basic principles and general ideas.

But Paulo, how can you say that? It doesn't seem right to make such a sweeping assumption unless you personally know Julie's background. I can't see that being the inevitable conclusion of the point she made, which seems fair enough doesn't it? The example, interesting as it was, didn't actually feature a retrograde Mars. Maybe I am missing something? (I must admit I've had to read the comments quickly - out of concern that we don't make personal criticisms about individual abilities).

Rx is only a small part of the planets zodiacal state

I disagree strongly. I believe mercury, venus and mars are profoundly altered by retrograde status.

It is nothing to do with the zodiacal state, of course, which is why it is an accidental testimony rather than an essential one. But that doesn't mean it is not important. In a general sense retrograde motion is very significant in terms of what is happening to the planet's apparent movement and expressed influence; in context of course.

PFN wrote: Julie, sorry for being blunt, but that's probably because you do not understand traditional astrology's most basic principles and general ideas.

Hello Deb,

That's why I said probably. Still, supposing Julie does have the background and my assumption was hasty (for which, indeed, I would apologize) I still do believe she to be putting an emphasis on retrogradation that is over exaggerated. On her first post she said:

JulieYvonne wrote:I would never, ever start a new job with inner planets retrograde if it could be avoided, but, as someone said, if you can't control the date and you want the job, you're stuck (...) Mars retro for marriage is really unfortunate. Mars rules the procreative principle, so I hope they're in total agreement about the kid issue.

If the planet has no accidental or natural relation and does not afflict what you seek after, what's to fear? And if you're electing something and can seal it cadent without hurting important planet's, just like in the example Steven gave, you can avert it's evil (supposing the radix chart does not say otherwise, of course). Also, often retrogradation just unleashes something that may already be present in the natal chart, so you have to understand the proper context. To just say we should always avoid Mars or any other planet retrograde is absurd, cause it's not impossible or that rare to it's retrogradation bring about something good, despite the usual delay or suddenness related to it.

I do accept that Mars have correlation to the "initiation" of things, through the "principle of initiactive" (but not to the procreative one, that's the Moon and Jupiter territory, correct me if I'm wrong) but not always is he in charge or have that much say in "begginings". What if Saturn put too much pressure or Jupiter offered too much goodness? If my natal Mars or a transiting Mars is retrograde, I should and/or will just sit and wait? And if I do not, everything blows? It's less about Mars than other planets and their interactions most of the time (after all, it's 6x1). Instead of avoiding, it would be better if we understand what something especifically means beforehand, cause retrogradation can or can not be that important. It's the confluence of testimonies that will show the truth, not a single one.

That's not to say I do not believe retrogradation to be a debility, cause I do, but to state it's all this doom is to generalize things and worse, put a weight on it that it does not have by itself. And this idea is modern in my opinion, and widespread in a inconsequential manner as even in the tv news we see from time to time the dread of Mercury retrograde spreading like the fear of the H1N1.

I dare someone to challenge my first statement because for that I will list you dozens of refrences in what the ancients wrote as well as give you dozens of examples.

No one needs to draw pistols at dawn over this. My interjection was out of concern that people discuss this respectfully and with an openness to varying opinions, because I have seen too many threads turn into demonstrations of their topic header. Personally I think that planetary phase is the foundation of planetary understanding and retrograde motion is part of that; but I wouldn?t disagree with your point Steven that every planet is not always a cause for concern. On the other hand I don?t believe that Julie was suggesting that we stay in bed until the event passes either. I think she was generalising about those situations where Mars is significant. However, this is not something that really concerns me either way.

PFN, to suggest that someone does not understand even the *most basic principles and general ideas* is bound to make that person feel insulted or to want to respond in kind. I?m not concerned whether Julie has ?the background? or not ? and I hope that she realises that she won?t benefit by justifyingy her right to comment here. She expressed a strong disagreement upon one particular point but she was not disrespectful to anyone. Hence her comment should have been responded to by picking up one of her points, or it should have been left unanswered.


And with that I leave for the weekend. Tom will have to worry about this thread now

Deb

No worries Deb, I'm not taking the bait. Your comments were much appreciated, though, and helpful in this regard.

Besides, my dueling pistol rusted, thanks to Mars Rx.

JulieYvonne wrote:Getting back to the OP, I was a little startled that there was such a tepid response to the basic question of starting a job with mars Rx. Is this because astrologers here have no personal experience with the Rx, or that it is not the right question for this forum, or traditional sources are silent?

The retrograde cycle of mars is unique of the superior planets in that it does not trine the sun during its retrograde phase, forming only the quincunx and opposition. For this reason alone it is said to have an extremely unsettling and disruptive influence during the Rx phase. In addition, the relative rarity of mars Rx, compared to the other superior planets, would indicate it is a difficult energy to assimilate. We are not "used" to it.

Why would anyone want to begin anything under these conditions?

Deb, the only reason I answered the way I did was because of this comment. Although I over reacted, I do find very unpolite to question astrologers personal experience about the subject in such a subreptitious manner, or hint that traditional authorities are silent just because she did not agree and/or wholy understood some of the points that were being made in previous posts.

Everyone has the right to ask, but why not going on and reading some of the previous posts and threads about the subject on the forum or some articles available on the site dealing with the traditional perspective of astrology, before questioning how it works? It's a common thing for people to just land here full of questions or opinions when there's plenty of material for study on the forum that could be englightening and save everyone some time. I believe that to be the best route to take before sharing a opinion about anything without understanding or accepting the possible arguments that will be made against it.

Anyway, I suggest it's time to drop this cause noone will profit further from this discussion. The answers now are anything but tepid, and although in an aflame manner, I believe usefull examples and opinions have been provided. We all would be better returning to the topic itself, if anyone feels that anything should be added.

JulieYvonne wrote:The retrograde cycle of mars is unique of the superior planets in that it does not trine the sun during its retrograde phase, forming only the quincunx and opposition. For this reason alone it is said to have an extremely unsettling and disruptive influence during the Rx phase. In addition, the relative rarity of mars Rx, compared to the other superior planets, would indicate it is a difficult energy to assimilate. We are not "used" to it.

While I knew that Mars has a shorter period of being retrograde, I never made the link with the impossibility of the trine to the Sun. That's something interesting to ponder on.

However I wouldn't see the retrograde period necessarily in a negative way. The 'not being "used" to it' is an apt observation and fits in the subconscious human desire for 'order'. The unusual retrograde movement of planets collides with this order, just like the big eccentricities of the orbits of Mars and Mercury, which cause irregularities.

However I believe that the human mind can learn to cope with the negative effecs of retrogradation now the cause of the retrograde movement can easily be understood by the heliocentric model. If this cosmic view is internalized then I'd expect that the retrogradation would have less effect on us.

Maybe this view of mine is not particularly astrological and/or quite modern, yet many of the ancient redemption philosophies are based upon getting knowledge in order to be liberated of negative issues. When the mystery of an astronomical issue is solved one can see that something that has a fearful appearance can have quite a simple explanation.

From my (philosophical/occult) point of view, starting a matter of Martial quality (or, as said more traditionally, under Martial rulership) with Mars retrograde would be contra-indicated, simply because the matter would "receive" an essentially nil Mars influence ("Mars fighting/conflicting with itself") However, Mars in its fall (or even in detriment) would (in my view) be an even more significant contra-indication for starting something of Martial quality (rulership) than merely being Mars rx. But starting something NOT of Mars quality (rulership) with Mars rx (or fall or detriment) would not have much (if any) effect on the matter (in my opinion)

I'm suddenly reminded of having read something that Julius Ceasar used to fight against the Gaul and Germanic tribes at waning Moon. For example here(p.133)

Those tribes avoided several activities at waning moon. This could make one an easy prey to others. So even if Mars retrograde has negative effects it's best to act when one really has to. Just like having to do an exam on an unfortunate date. Even if there are negative effects it's better to face it and work a bit harder than to avoid it.

Do you understand how ridiculous the statement "never start anything while Mars is Rx" sounds to me?

Let me clarify one point, which is that I meant to say "anything significant"-- which was clearly my position from the first post. I did not opine that the OP should under no circumstances begin a job with mars Rx. My view is that if one has a choice, waiting is beneficial. Yes, this is a generalization. Obviously there are times when we must plow ahead.

I can see now how my remark about a "tepid" response might rankle, and I apologize. I did not intend to provoke or belittle. Neither do I think it warranted the tone of a few of the subsequent comments. I did not "attack" your example, I pointed something out. Nevertheless, I understand your position--Rx is a debility but in no sense is it the only consideration or even the most important one; mars must have a relationship to the matter; mars is not a universal significator of beginnings. I assure you that you need not state it a fourth time.

Hello Eddy, I agree that the retrograde period has something important to teach us-- and that it is not negative in this sense. At the same time, the disorder that you refer to that occurs during the retrograde phase is best used for review and editing and waiting. A generalization, I know. It is a modern view that retrogradation in general means WAIT. ( Unfortunately I forgot this thread was on the traditional forum.) I know that the moon is taken into account with beginnings, but as far as a universal significator for war? In the example of the Gulf war, the retrograde mars coincided with saber-rattling and positioning. Actual hostilities began under the trine, taking place after mars went direct.

Dr. farr, I absolutely agree that events of a martial nature are contra-indicated with mars in detriment, as much as mars Rx. I have an example of a mars Rx surgery, a mars in fall surgery, but no detriment, it just makes sense, though. Both outcomes in my examples were predictably unpleasant, the mars Rx was worse, resulting in more surgeries. In my opinion marriage is an unfortunate event to be born under a mars retrograde because although mars does not rule marriage, venus depends on mars, mars being the sex drive after all. My one example of a mars Rx marriage was unsuccessful although the couple parted friends, which i think is a great success. Whether retrogradation trumps other debilities, I am unable to provide any controlled studies/ proof, so this is my opinion!