Greetings,

I am new at this, totally!

And I am presently stuck on a few passages in Christian Astrology that appear to mean the ring was stolen by a man and a woman acting together.

Querent: L1/ Jupiter, in dignity
Ring: L2 /Venus, in dignity
Thieves: Mercury and Mars. L7/Mercury, peregrine; Mercury can also signify a thief. Testimonies from Lilly for more than one thief include: Significator in a double-bodied and fruitful sign (Mercury is in Pisces); lord of the ascendant in a male sign (Jupiter is in Sagittarius) and lord of the hour in a female sign (Venus is in Pisces), indicates thieves are a man and woman and, of the two, the planet to whom the Moon applies is the "principle actor" (CA, p. 339). Moon applies to Mars.

For thief #1, Mars: Venus (ring) applies to Mars; also Moon translates Venus to Mars.
For thief #2, Mercury: Mercury applies to Venus; also Moon previously translated Mercury to Venus.

It seems like a closed circuit, they got the ring. Mars' speed is very fast, near maximum. As instigator, Mars-thief acted swiftly with Mercury to surround and steal the ring. And they still have it. Mercury does not apply to any other planet (in real time, it stations retrograde at 10Pisces), therefore keeps the ring, for now. Mars does not apply to any other planet.

Moon's opposition to Venus is less than 6 minutes of arc. It is not yet a separation, rather it remains a perfection (CA, p. 110). Again, thief still has the ring, possibly on her finger (4th house is Gemini, hands).

Arguments for recovery: Venus is in its exaltation and (after its application to Mars) it applies to Jupiter (Querent) by square with reception, also applies to ascendant; Moon translates Venus to Jupiter (although to Mars first) and then to ascendant by opposition. Over and over, the paths for Venus lead the ring to Querent, although with some difficulty.

How? After Venus-ring separates from Mars (via either Moon translation or Venus applies!) it goes to Jupiter (Querent). Moon might signify police, it is in the 6th (police), rules 6th and is received by Venus (in her triplicity and term). The Moon delivers ring to Querent by translation. At first I was reluctant to view Mars as thief because it is in the sign of its exaltation and Lilly often refers to peregrine planets for thieves. Instead I thought Mars might represent a figure of authority such as a police officer involved in the recovery. Could it act as both?

When? The timing of Moon or Venus to Jupiter or to ascendant. Between five and nine 'somethings'. I'm working on it.

Lucky comes to mind but I cannot support that astrologically outside of that the benefics are everywhere in this chart, both dignified and with reception, not only sign and exaltation, but terms, triplicities, PoF ruler, and lady of the hour, too. Is it nutty of me or has anyone noticed the many double-doubles in this chart? Beginning with the double-bodied and mutable angles and then aspects for important significators have a double reinforcing it. Circular and symmetrical are Venus qualities. Or else it's just me going round in circles with this chart!

Cindy

Hi Cindy,
Thank you for your delineation. I think the seperating aspects of the Moon are showing that the ring was not stolen: the Moon is seperating from Venus, no other contact was made to Venus. Venus is a benefic and Venus is not seperating from the lord of the 7th, debelitated Mercury, nor seperating from the lord of the 8th, Mars ( posseions of the enemy/thief), or the other malefic Saturn.
If the ring was stolen, than we would expect a connection between the missing item and the significator of the thief.
That is not the case here. The placement of Venus, the ring, in the sign of the ascendant, suggests that the ring is still in the environment of the querent, again an argument that the ring was not stolen.
Would you agree?
Tienka

Oops, I mixed up the signs from another chart I was studying. Debilitated Mercury is in Jupiter's detriment and could show her mind being distracted leading her to lose the ring.

A planet in it's fall may show the ring "has no proper section", and similar to being "confined to a tight place" (Al Biruni). In detriment shows the ring is obstructed. Pieces can show floors and shoes. Maybe look in a bookcase or file cabinet in the bottom drawer or around shoes.

Lilly says Mercury in a "common sign shows it is in a little Cell within another Chamber." CA 353 This makes me think she put it into a container then set it inside a cabinet or drawer. With Venus moving toward Mars and Jupiter, the ring will appear while going about her business.

kali

Hi Tienka,

I appreciate your feedback! Horary is new to me and I am grateful for the opportunity to try out the techniques in CA on these practice charts. Somewhere I missed a simple overview such as you described or mixed up one of Lilly's many neither-nor's . Well, back to the book...

Thanks again
Cindy

Hi Kali,
I am not sure if we should look at Mercury this way:

Debilitated Mercury is in Jupiter's detriment and could show her mind being distracted leading her to lose the ring.

Mercury is the significator of the 4th and according to Lilly:"?The 4th house and his lord shall signify the place where it is laid, put or done, or conveyed to, and is in it at the time. ?CA p. 332
So to me, the ruler of the 4th being in detriment and fall, signifies an unusual place. I am not sure if Mercury in this case shows the mind of the querent? But perhaps you are right, because the last aspect of the Moon, co-significator of the querent, seperating from Venus, the ring, shows the same in a way:querent"lay it down and forget it, and so it was lost."CA p. 333
I love your next statement:

With Venus moving toward Mars and Jupiter, the ring will appear while going about her business.

I did not look at the chart in that way, but it is very describing!
thanks!
Tienka

Tienka Atema wrote:Hi Kali,
I am not sure if we should look at Mercury this way:

Debilitated Mercury is in Jupiter's detriment and could show her mind being distracted leading her to lose the ring.

Mercury is the significator of the 4th and according to Lilly:"?The 4th house and his lord shall signify the place where it is laid, put or done, or conveyed to, and is in it at the time. ?CA p. 332
So to me, the ruler of the 4th being in detriment and fall, signifies an unusual place. I am not sure if Mercury in this case shows the mind of the querent? But perhaps you are right, because the last aspect of the Moon, co-significator of the querent, seperating from Venus, the ring, shows the same in a way:querent"lay it down and forget it, and so it was lost."CA p. 333

You made me dig a little further into this matter. Mercury also rules the 3rd which can signify visitors. (Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson) And Deb says in her book 'House Rulerships in Practice' it rules "languages, mobility skills and self-expression." So the idea here is Mercury (natural ruler of the mind) is debilitated maybe causing her energies to be scattered due to all her visitors. Mind and mobility a bit off. Also see that Moon leaves Mercury and transfers it's energies to Venus and she doesn't think about what her body is doing in regards to the ring.

That's how I see the story playing out.

I love your next statement:

With Venus moving toward Mars and Jupiter, the ring will appear while going about her business.

I did not look at the chart in that way, but it is very describing!
thanks!
Tienka

Listening to Deb's clues and seeing which ones are supported by the planets movements helped big time.

kali

Hi all!!
Having been away from Horary for a long time,not by choice,but due to circumstances,I feel very rusty!! but have really enjoyed watching this post! I find recovery charts can be quite puzzling & not always clear. The only ones I have judged & have been successful in recovering the object,have been ones where they were asked out of desperation by the querent! both by my husband,on losing his cash point card & his work keys!!
They were so clear I really thought I had 'cracked' recovery charts!!
I haven't really had a good look at this horary,I'm sorry to say,but am intrigued to know the outcome!
Wishes,SG

This hasn't been answered yet right? I just did a quick check to the end of the thread and it doesn't seem to be despite the date passing.
I'll give it my best go before reading everyone elses comments.

The querent is signified by Jupiter in Sag in the 9th.
The ring is her possession and is therefore lord 2, Venus in Pisces in the 12th.

The everything being so dignified and involving the two benefics and with the NN on the ascendant, nothing would seem to suggest theft which is what I initially thought whilst reading the summary. The ring was just lost.

Incidentally Venus also rules the 8th house which may (but probably doesn't) have something to do with the fact that this ring was inherited.

The moon's last aspect was to the ring and it is translating light from Venus to Jupiter so someone, some lunar person, is bringing the ring back to the querent. Moon rules the fifth and 6th house in this horary so perhaps somehow related to these houses.
Where is the ring now? It is 'stuck' in the 12th house and in a watery sign, but it is well dignified, exalted even. So the ring appears to be safe or at least in good condition, but it is 'hidden' in the 12th and likely to be stuck there - the most likely place, considering what she said about the drain, is that the ring is stuck in the drain, or, if the plumbing allows it, is stuck outside where the pipe exits the house to enter the outside drain (not sure if the house is like that or not).

Venus will perfect its aspect to Jupiter naturally, however it will do so by square indicating that the result only comes after much struggle. However the Moon is translating the light here. The moon is opposition Venus and continues on to swiftly aspect Jupiter in a matter of 5 units of time. It seems sensible to consider that time scale to be days(? I never really understand timing methods tbh). With that in mind a Moon person will get the ring for her and will do so in five weeks.
So who is the moon person again? A 5th or 6th house person. Considering that it is likely to be stuck somewhere wet (a drain, or perhaps a pipe from the sink) it is not unlikely that this person is a 6th house person - a plumber.

My overall guess would be that the ring is stuck in a pipe or in the drain and that she will have to call someone out to get it, a plumber or something like that, and that the ring will be returned to her in 5 weeks from the chart date, but the translation of light by opposition and the perfection by square suggests that it will take a lot of effort to the get the ring and perhaps even end up costing more than the ring is financially worth.
(of course the querent is not thinking of its financial worth but its sentimental worth!)

maybe the delay is due to Merc being Ret??

I'm truly a beginner at this type of horary. But I will give it a shot.
I think the fact that both Venus (ring)and Mercury (location) are in Pisces (bathroom, kitchen) means she did leave the ring in the kitchen. I take them both to be in the 12th house. So they are out of sight. Moon is separating from Venus the ring and the location, Mercury. I'm taking this to mean that the querent took the ring and placed it out of sight. The moon in Virgo (closets, drawers, storage area) is applying to Mars in Cap. (low dark places-cap) Mars also indicates it's in the kitchen....near the stove.
Did she place the ring in a drawer near the stove or did she put the ring in the stove? Sounds bizarre lol

Hi all,
Thank you for your contributions. Yes, Paul, I do think charts are telling the story more thoroughly than we would expect and Venus is a significator of the inheritance here.Thanks to Deb who teaches that every chart has its story, I noticed it as well.
Taurus 12: to me, Venus in the 12th but in the sign of the ascendant showed that the ring was still in the environment of the querent. It is all about Mercury, isn't it? And maybe Mercury retro did contribute to the delay, I am not sure, Saturn girl. I think the cadency was more important here: that showed the difficulties of the recovery to me.
Both Venus and the Moon are disposed by Mercury in Pisces: being in detriment, it shows an unusual place, not a place you would expect a ring to be I can follow your reasoning about the stove, but the overall picture, to me, did not point to the kitchen

But all charts are easy, when you know the outcome and that will be revealed very soon!
regards,
Tienka

Just realised I said five units of time as being likely to be days, but then went on to use weeks after that. I think cos I re-read the original question and misread it as having last seen it four weeks prior to the horary so changed the time scale to weeks.

I actually meant days really. Within five days.

Can't wait to hear how Deb/you answered this. Not sure if my 'approach' was correct or not.