Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hello Matthew,

matt23z wrote: I certainly did not mean to imply anything about the worth of Ptolemy and may I assure assure you that my own copy of Tetrabiblos has been opened more than once.

Matthew

it was not a personal comment, sorry if it looked like that.

and yes sometimes it's hard to find a red thread, I completely agree.
margherita

Basically, what I'm trying to find is the soul's mission for this incarnation in the chart and any indications for spiritual development.

We have strayed a bit from malefic fixed stars but its an interesting coincidence this topic has come up. I have just booked a speaker for my Association who is giving a talk entitled 'Astrology and the Soul's Purpose'. However, in this instance the speaker will be coming at the topic from the modern esoteric teachings of Theosophy, Bailey, Steiner etc. We will be recording the talk if anyone is interested in getting a copy of the CD.

Getting back to more traditional astrology what about the Lot/Part of Spirit? While, Ptolemy didn't use this in his astrology just about everyone else in early astrology did look at it. In basic terms this Lot reflects more how we express our free will and higher aspirations in life as opposed to the Lot of Fortune which is more concerned with our material and fated destiny. These two fundamental lots are linked to the Sun and Moon respectively. The Lot of Spirit is linked to the Sun while the lot of fortune is the lot of the Moon.

Mark

I know this is a little OT but since Part of Fortune came up I wonder if you use a different formula for day births and night births as Robert Hand suggests in

http://www.astro.com/astrologie/in_fortune_g.htm

In the article Hand says all the Lots have different formulas for diurnal and nocturnal charts.

I know this is a little OT but since Part of Fortune came up I wonder if you use a different formula for day births and night births as Robert Hand suggests in

http://www.astro.com/astrologie/in_fortune_g.htm

In the article Hand says all the Lots have different formulas for diurnal and nocturnal charts.

I will probably get in trouble for replying to such an off topic point so fully but I think you have raised an interesting point.

Yes I do use the reversed formula for the Lot of Fortune/Spirit. Most authorities on the lots use the reversed formula ie Robert Hand, Dorian Greenbaum, Chris Brennan, Robert Schmidt and Steven Birchfield do this. Anyone strongly influenced by mainstream classical astrology is likely to do this. There is no question that reversal was the approach of most astrologers in the classical period with the Lot of Fortune. Ptolemy's rather maverick approach to the lots ie leaving out the lot of Spirit became more influential on medieval and renaissance astrologers due to revival of interest in his ideas. In particular the availability of medieval translations of Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos and Almagest.

The basic logic of reversing the lots relates back to planetary sect. In ancient astrology it was very important whether a chart was a day or night chart. In a day chart the Sun was sect light and of primary importance while in a night chart the Moon was sect light and of greater significance. Hence in a day chart the Lot of Fortune is calculated from the position of the Sun to the Moon but in a night chart the Lot of Fortune is calculated from from the position of the Moon to the Sun. In each case these are then projected from the ascendant. The Lot of Spirit is calculated in the opposite way ie in a day chart from the position of the Moon to the Sun and visa versa at night.

Ptolemy, unlike his contemporaries, did not reverse the calculation of the Lot of Fortune in day or night chart. Moreover, he did not use the Lot of Spirit at all. Ptolemy's idiosyncratic stance on the lots was very influential in the long term and became accepted practice for much of medieval, renaissance and early modern astrology.

Another factor leading to the decline of lot reversal was the changing understanding of what planetary sect meant in the horoscope. The fundamental distinction between a day and night chart became altered in Arabic and later medieval astrology. Hence the logic of Lot reversal was significantly diminished.

Personally, I think leaving out Lot reversal for the Lot of Fortune and Spirit lacks the philosophical consistency of the original approach. As I see it the relationship between the Lot of Fortune and Spirit tie integrally into the the lunation cycle and the ideas of planetary sect which are at the heart of ancient astrology. However, as in every debate there are always two sides of the argument.

By the way, I recommend Robert Hand's excellent booklet on planetary sect 'Night and Day' which you can order from Arhat publications.

Mark

I am going to add one little comment to offer another side to that statement, but let?s remember that this *is* drifting off topic, and we have plenty of other threads where the subject of lots are, have been, and can be discussed in more detail.

As I see it the relationship between the Lot of fortune and Spirit tie integrally into the the lunation cycle and the ideas of planetary sect which are at the heart of ancient astrology.

Speaking from a primarily horary perspective I see this as one reason why the lots of Fortune and Spirit may not be the crucial considerations they are sometimes reported to be. They are only reflections of the lunation cycle, so if an astrologer carries an awareness of the lunation cycle the lots become redundant. For example, in every chart ? nativity, event, horary, whatever ? cast when the Sun and Moon are conjoined, the POF will fall upon the ascendant; in every chart where they are in opposition, it will fall on the descendant. The solar-lunation cycle is similarly reflected throughout the house positions, meaning that the lots don?t really ?personalise? the solar-lunar relationship at all; they merely reflect it, whilst at another level distorting it's principle. For example, in horary I often have to remind students that it is not a ?great thing? to have Fortuna on the ascendant, since this only happens when the Moon is combust, and usually the negative considerations of that way outweigh any positive considerations that come from having Fortuna angular.

I do believe that astrologers can make great use of the lots, and make a great system out of their use; but that doesn't mean that they are necessary and fundamental factors which are essential, or 'maverick' to ignore.

Agree. Have often seen astrologers from a particular sect electing times for fortuna angular, ignoring the fact that moon will either be combust or in hard relationship with the sun in most of these cases.

Hello all!

Paulo, forgive the thread-drift!

Deb wrote: Speaking from a primarily horary perspective I see this as one reason why the lots of Fortune and Spirit may not be the crucial considerations they are sometimes reported to be. They are only reflections of the lunation cycle ...

They are reflective of the lunation cycle, but not only, because they also partake in the Ascending degree.

Since several different points have been made, that seems a fair point to end the off-topic drift. I would like to say more myself but won't because there are other threads where these points are better placed.

I feel another thread coming on...

May a newbie ask a question? Where on this site could one learn to examine the effects of a prominent fixed star on a natal chart? I have, alas, Algol on the midheaven and would like to learn how to interpret it. Thanks