To Kirk ,Tom and All,

I thought this article by the Portugese astrologer Luis Ribeiro might interest you. I just noticed he mentions Charles Manson in his example charts to demonstrate combustion:

http://www.academyofastrology.org/artic ... estion.pdf

Mark

I am merely citing the ancient idea that in a day chart the Mother is represented by the Venus.

And I'm rejecting it.

Its not the only thing I would look at.

Didn't say it was.

Check your sources Tom. It actually can if you are counting accidental and natural significators. However, I suspect like Morin you largely dispense with natural significators so I see your point.

My sources are first common sense. Venus, Lady of the ASC cannot be both Manson and his mother. If so, then everything we know about Charlie from this chart would also be true of his mother. That makes no sense.

Second source is Morin who rejected the idea of general significators on the above grounds as also did Cardan (according to Morin anyway - in chapter 6 of Liber de Revolutione)

"What then must be the condition of the Moon in the horoscope of one whose wife had died in childbirth, but himself lived a long life who had many healthy daughters, but also maid-servants who ran away, who had a sound body but a mother who died young and who himself showed a poor moral character?"

Good question Jerome.

I dont disagree with your last comment. However, you think Venus gets the Sun's power while combust?

From the Sun, the principle of power. I'm questioning the effect of combustion in nativities. That's my point. If combustion weakens and Lord ASC does not exhibit weakness, then the effects combustion are called into question. My point is that in this and Bugliosi's chart, combustion does not have the effect is is said to have. For the record, Morin ignored combustion.

Personally Manson's charisma is more about the Jupiter closely conjunct the Descendant myself. The word 'magnetc' seems a good description of Jupiter in Scorpio on the descendant. Its also conjunct Mercury ( Lord 5 whole sign). However, despite its angularity its not able to manifest in a naturally beneficial way for Manson (Lord 8 & 12 WS) or the women he attracts.

Getting to the truth is more important than how we get there, but Jupiter in Scorpio on the DSC = charisma doesn't do it for me. Noel Tyl argued that Mars Jupiter contacts = charisma. Manson has none. Jupiter will affect his personality as it tightly opposes the ASC, whether or not that gives him charisma I don't know.

Remember, too that it is arguable that he was not all that charismatic except to other degenerates. He scared other people including one of the Beach Boys and it would not surprise me if Roman Polanski completely underestimated Manson and did cheat him in a drug deal. But I doubt Polanski and Dennis Wilson (I think it was Dennis) were awed by him. Only the human debris that made up his family thought that.

My sources are first common sense.

One man's common sense is another's folly.

Tom wrote:

Venus, Lady of the ASC cannot be both Manson and his mother. If so, then everything we know about Charlie from this chart would also be true of his mother. That makes no sense.

It may not make sense to you but that doesn't mean other people with a different outlook cannot make it work. You are already taking on one of the most ancient priciples in the tradition itself ie combustion. Do really really want to open up a second front against the use of natural significators here too? Morin would be proud of you.

Even if we do this exclusively by your defintion ie accidental significators only we can end up with planets ruling several houses so having to serve as symbolic for more than one thing in a chart. Its worse if you use intercepted quadrant houses.

Mark

Combustion can also indicate secrecy and hidden things. And there was certainly plenty of that.

I had a friend, not close, but a friend still, who was killed in the Tate-LaBianca murders.

Everybody knew Charles Manson was creepy. Maybe even dangerous creepy, but I don't think anyone suspected the depths of depravity that were really happening until it was far too late.

I would like to offer an example of a female relative's chart that seems to sum up all the definitions of a combust planet offered here. She is Virgo rising. Libra rules the 2nd house in her chart. She has Venus in close conjunction to the Sun in Aquarius in the 6th house. She has lunged from financial crisis after crisis since her teens. Despite her constant financial difficulties and her frequent assistance from others she insists on keeping anything relating to her money matters incredibly secret. However, on a personal level this relative has a lot of charm. Indeed I suspect that is how she has managed to borrow so much money to date. Hence, her chart seems to combine all three meanings discussed here ie weakness ( financial difficulties) , secrecy and charm (Venus + Sun).

Mark

And here is something of possible interest from Sahl's 50 Precepts:

Sahl wrote: Thirty-eighth. When a planet is under the Sun's beams towards the west, i.e., when it rises in the evening, its strength will be weak--as is said of the superior planets. For there will be no strength to it or to its light, and its impediment will be less if it is a malefic. And if it is retrograde, it will be slow in all things.

Bolding mine. If he talks about a planet under the beams towards the east, I haven't found it yet.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Dahmer%2C_Jeffrey

The above chart belongs to Jeffrey Dahmer. He also possess a dignified Saturn. His Venus, AC ruler, is domiciliated. Yet, he was a serial killer.

I did a research on astro databank, with the words "serial killer" and what I saw is that generally, there is no guarantee pattern. We see malefics disposing lots of planets in several cases, we see loaded 7th houses on others, and we see lots of planets inside bad houses on some others, but the truth is that each chart tends to manifest in it's own way, as would be expected. The lesson here is that no single factor is definitive, as a Saturn in domicile may be on the chart of a serial killer, but still, so can be a Venus, or even a Jupiter, as in:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Succo%2C_Roberto

About Manson chart, I certainly would be aware of the fact that his loaded 7th house was disposed by a Mars in the 6th house cusp (actually, all of his planets are disposed by malefics!). I would also notice a Jupiter, as ruler of 12th and 8th, being the most angular planet in the chart. The Combustion of Venus should be considered, but a lot of people will have either Venus or Mercury combust in their charts, which points that these inferior planets are tied, to a certain extent, to the Sun, and one of it's universal meanings, the ego (to use a mostly modern idea, that I do respect). I do not find it absurd to think that our pleasures in life (Venus) and our rationale (Mercury) are tied to our ego, our sense of self (Sun) and the only exception to that rule among inferiors is indeed the Moon, that because of that, among other reasons, has a special status on par with the Sun itself.

At least, one representation of Saturn in Manson's chart is clearly correct. Eventually, law and imprisonement did fall hard on him (Saturn's theme). Saturn is distant 30? approximately of the MC, showing that it's effects would be manifest more openly after his 30's. Also of note, the Moon, ruler of 4th (roots) that also relates to his mother, does not receive Venus in Scorpio (sign of the Moon's fall) or any other planet in the 7th, for that matter.

The Helena Avelar and Luis Ribeiro article that Mark linked to above is very good ? thanks for posting it Mark, I hadn?t seen it and I think it gives a good overview of the impact of combustion in traditional natal astrology.
The descriptive detail that is provided by the combust state of Venus in Manson?s chart makes a lot of sense to me. The idea of weakness relates only to the fact that Venus is withdrawn, not openly expressed, but operating in the dark, undergoing transformation ? as ascendant ruler it keys into something significant in the expression of the chart, whilst also relating to the fact that Manson has spent most of his life incarcerated.

Earlier Tom wrote

his significator is weakened not only by being in detriment but by combustion, there is little power to be exercised,

Which seems to assume that a planet in detriment is weak; but this points to affliction and corruption in its expression, not weakness.

Since Tom Mark and Kirk have now expressed their views on combustion, and I don?t want to see this thread de-railed into a track that has been traced here many times, I am asking for the thread to be returned to its original theme, or for only new comments on combustion from other members who have additional views to add.

Deb