Skyscript Astrology Forum

Posted: **Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:40 am**

This translation of Valens seems to indicate the reverse for calculating the lot of fortune to what is expected:

Pg 26, section 3: The Lot of Fortune and its Houseruler

?Next in order, it will be necessary (for day nativities) to count accurately
the distance from the sun to the moon, then to measure off in the opposite direction an equal distance from the Ascendant, and to inspect the resulting place: which star is its ruler and which star or stars are at this point and all the square or trine asterisms of this place."

If I take my chart as example, it says to take the distance from the Sun (13 Leo) to the Moon (9 Gemini) and measure off in the opposite direction an equal distance from the ascendant so since we were going backwards against the order of the signs, now it says to go forward in the order of the signs and the ascendant is 1 Sco, so this gives 5 Cap, which is where I thought the lot of spirit was. Any thoughts on this?

Posted: **Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:30 am**

Hello,

I am pretty sure that you know what it means as you would also have Schmidt's translation.

Posted: **Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:47 am**

astrojin wrote:Hello,

I am pretty sure that you know what it means as you would also have Schmidt's translation.

I do. But I figured that since many here seem to think that Schmidt's translations are questionable, that maybe someone would have an explanation for the difference between what Schmidt says and what this translation says. If Schmidt did it wrong, then it should be pointed out here with an explanation of why this translation is better.

Posted: **Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:48 pm**

jerd wrote:The translation of Mark T.Riley of Valens' is available here:

http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/#papers

...

According toValens, if lord of Asc. is square or opposite Lord of 8th house, the person will have a violent death.
This was true of Malcolm X, but Martin Luther King had the rulers in conjunction and he was killed as well, when a malefic was opposite the conjunction.
I think ancient authors could never have had the amount of case studies you do have now

Posted: **Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:54 pm**

Oh, don't worry, there are a number of of different indicators for violent death in traditional astrology.

Then again, if you're new, I probably shouldn't say that, should I? Still, wait til you get to fixed stars.

On the good side, there are also a lot of mitigating factors.

Posted: **Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:02 pm**

zoidsoft wrote:This translation of Valens seems to indicate the reverse for calculating the lot of fortune to what is expected:

Pg 26, section 3: The Lot of Fortune and its Houseruler

?Next in order, it will be necessary (for day nativities) to count accurately
the distance from the sun to the moon, then to measure off in the opposite direction an equal distance from the Ascendant, and to inspect the resulting place: which star is its ruler and which star or stars are at this point and all the square or trine asterisms of this place."

If I take my chart as example, it says to take the distance from the Sun (13 Leo) to the Moon (9 Gemini) and measure off in the opposite direction an equal distance from the ascendant so since we were going backwards against the order of the signs, now it says to go forward in the order of the signs and the ascendant is 1 Sco, so this gives 5 Cap, which is where I thought the lot of spirit was. Any thoughts on this?

http://www.noendpress.com/pvachier/arab ... /index.php

I use the software above. Quite different from Valens,and I get 26 Cancer for you,not Capricorn. I`m not getting it!!??

Posted: **Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:41 am**

DrStarman wrote:
zoidsoft wrote:This translation of Valens seems to indicate the reverse for calculating the lot of fortune to what is expected:

Pg 26, section 3: The Lot of Fortune and its Houseruler

?Next in order, it will be necessary (for day nativities) to count accurately
the distance from the sun to the moon, then to measure off in the opposite direction an equal distance from the Ascendant, and to inspect the resulting place: which star is its ruler and which star or stars are at this point and all the square or trine asterisms of this place."

If I take my chart as example, it says to take the distance from the Sun (13 Leo) to the Moon (9 Gemini) and measure off in the opposite direction an equal distance from the ascendant so since we were going backwards against the order of the signs, now it says to go forward in the order of the signs and the ascendant is 1 Sco, so this gives 5 Cap, which is where I thought the lot of spirit was. Any thoughts on this?
http://www.noendpress.com/pvachier/arab ... /index.php

I use the software above. Quite different from Valens,and I get 26 Cancer for you,not Capricorn. I`m not getting it!!??

That software doesn't seem to work right because it is forcing the use of the PM formula when I'm a day birth. The formula as stated on the site is what I expected, but when you read the translation prof Riley did exactly and take the arc from the Moon to the Sun and then take that same arc in the reverse direction, then you would end up at 5 cap for fortune. Schmidt's translation of the same paragraph from Valens says to take the arc "and an equal amount from the ascendant" which are very different things. Later on Schmidt had doubts because some of the lots such as the lot of eros already had spirit/fortune in the equation, so using algebraic notation, he proved that in some cases the reversal is done twice and in others the reversal is canceled which bothered him because of the asymmetry. After he proposed a solution to the translation, there was considerable debate about what was going on with the 7 hermetic lots and what exactly it means to "reverse". It's a long story...

It is good to have seen books 8 and 9 for the first time. I bring this up because one has to be careful about translation because there are often many ways to translate a single sentence, especially a Greek sentence.

Posted: **Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:47 am**

I noticed in another location of that translation that Valens, pg 38 (3rd paragraph) states the algorithm for finding the lot in the usual manner...

Posted: **Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:29 am**

zoidsoft wrote:I noticed in another location of that translation that Valens, pg 38 (3rd paragraph) states the algorithm for finding the lot in the usual manner...

He also seems to use Whole sign houses, with MC-IC often in 9th or 11th houses. He comments that MC not only rules career and status but foreign affairs when placed in 9th

Posted: **Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:37 am**

zoidsoft wrote:
DrStarman wrote:
zoidsoft wrote:This translation of Valens seems to indicate the reverse for calculating the lot of fortune to what is expected:

Pg 26, section 3: The Lot of Fortune and its Houseruler

?.
How do they define nightbirth?
Is it when it is really dark, or beginning to darken, the exact moment of Sunset?
Those things aren`t very clear for someone born around 6pm

Posted: **Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:03 pm**

From page 81:

from the Lot of Fortune, and if benefics are in aspect, there will be inheritances, gifts, or a cause of some
good. If the fatal Places transmit to Places which precede the angles or vice-versa, the native will hear of
someone?s death while abroad or as a result of travel. (The four Places which precede the angles serve as
Places of Foreigners and of Slaves.) Likewise in any nativity Gemini and Sagittarius have the same general
effect as the Place of Slaves because of their zodiacal position: when Cancer is in the Ascendant, the Place of
Slaves falls in these signs. So even when a native has the Place of Slaves in another sign, /172P/ but has
malefics in these <Gemini>, he will experience disturbances and injuries from slaves, even
penalties, death, and flight, especially if Saturn is in these Places. If benefics are in these Places, the native
will be thought well of <by> and will receive benefits from them, and he himself will be a benefactor
of slaves, or will indeed raise some, treating them as his children.

This is very similar to what Dutch Astrologer Wim Van Dam does, by considering Sun in H9 as if it were Sun in Sagitarius, and 0 of aries in say,11th house as meaning the rising sign is Aquarius

http://www.astrosoftware.com/WimMundane.htm

Posted: **Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:46 pm**

DrStarman wrote:From page 81:

from the Lot of Fortune, and if benefics are in aspect, there will be inheritances, gifts, or a cause of some
good. If the fatal Places transmit to Places which precede the angles or vice-versa, the native will hear of
someone?s death while abroad or as a result of travel. (The four Places which precede the angles serve as
Places of Foreigners and of Slaves.) Likewise in any nativity Gemini and Sagittarius have the same general
effect as the Place of Slaves because of their zodiacal position: when Cancer is in the Ascendant, the Place of
Slaves falls in these signs. So even when a native has the Place of Slaves in another sign, /172P/ but has
malefics in these <Gemini>, he will experience disturbances and injuries from slaves, even
penalties, death, and flight, especially if Saturn is in these Places. If benefics are in these Places, the native
will be thought well of <by> and will receive benefits from them, and he himself will be a benefactor
of slaves, or will indeed raise some, treating them as his children.

This is very similar to what Dutch Astrologer Wim Van Dam does, by considering Sun in H9 as if it were Sun in Sagitarius, and 0 of aries in say,11th house as meaning the rising sign is Aquarius

http://www.astrosoftware.com/WimMundane.htm

Valens is probably making a reference to the Thema Mundi here where Cancer rises. In the chart of the world, Sagittarius is the 6th house so is traditionally associated with slaves. Schmidt suggests that if one doesn't know what to do with some piece of the astrological puzzle, try to fit it into the chart of the Thema Mundi. He argues that this chart is the template for understanding Hellenistic astrology.

Valens understands all the cadent places to have to do with being away from home because the cadent sign is "turned away" from an angle.

Skyscript Astrology Forum

A complete translation of Vettius Valens by Mark Riley