I thought Bonatti said to use the term ruler as possible. If he didn't, then I know someone or several someones did, because I've come across that more than once. Domicile, exaltation, triplicity are also said to work, but term, being of the body, is preferred.

First: it is not important that the Sun does not have an Alchocoden because the Sun in Aries does not need it: it gives 120 years, but Zoller says that in half the period it happens a crisis. I never saw this kind of thing but in Zoller?s example and now in Van Gogh?s chart ( 57 years).

From my experience, the fourth.

Example 1:

Princess Margarreta Rose : 21.8.1930, 21: 22 GMD -01, Glamis , 3w00?00, 56n36?00
Death 9.2.2002 , 71y 5m 18d

Hyleg Moon , Alcocoden Moon + 108y

Aspects : conjuction Jupiter +12y + 45,5m
quadrature Venus + 45m
sextil Mercury +20y + 48m
opposition Saturn 1/3 30y = -10y

108 y +12y + 45,5m + 45m + 20y + 48m ? 10y = 141,5417 / 2 = 70,7708 = 70y 9m 7d

Example 2:

Vincent van Gogh : 30.3.1853
Death 29.7.1890, 37y 3m 29d

Hyleg Sun, Alcocoden Sun + 120y

Aspects : trigon Jupiter + 12y + 45,5m
trigon Moon + 25y
conjuction Mercury + 48m
coantis Mars -15y

120y + 12y + 45,5m + 25y + 48m ? 15y = 149,79 / 4 = 37,4375 = 37y 5m 11d

Hi Petr,

Your method is very interesting. You are dividing by 2 and by 4 in the two examples, respectively. Can you explain why?

Regards,
Nina

Hello Petr:

I think that maybe the division by 4 is as valid as by 2.
But we would need a bunch of studied cases to say we have a point. But it is interesting!

Meanwhile I was looking again to Van Gogh chart and when he killed himself he was in a Moon sub ruler Sun firdar. The profection was of 2nd house, and the Lord of the Year was the Sun.
Above I provided the natal chart and the SR chart for the year he committed suicide.
We have a double Sun/Moon appearing. The Solar Revolution Ascendant was his natal ASC: ruled by the Moon, and the Moon was in the 2nd house, opposing the 8th, in the sign of the Sun.
The direction from an anareta to the Hyleg need the use of Primary Directions.
I use Placidus key and I found out some correspondence.
During the first semester of 1890 he 2 important and dangerous directions:
In Mars,19th of 1890 happened a direction in Mundo :Moon squaring Mars . And in July 8th another direction in mundo : Mars conjunction Saturn. It?s very near of the day he shot himself ( 29th July).
Both directions deal with Mars and Mars is Sun?s dispositor, the Hyleg.
Concluding my reasoning: I think he was in a climacteric period, the luminaries were focused and specially the Moon witch is configured to illness must have had an important role in the suicide. The Sun was also being challenged by the firdar and the PD.

Interesting study, hu?

regards

Cl?lia

Petr, is it your method? The sun is unaspected. Why did you add Moon, Jupiter, Mercury years?

If you examine the ancient parctises, you will see that when part of fortune fails to produce alchohoden, ascendant can be a hyleg candidate even if it is a waning Moon. Yet again, Mars stands out. He trines the ascendant which is in 21th degree of Cancer. Mars is the triplicity ruler of Cancer. So I think Mars is a better hyleg candidate than the Sun, in every aspect. Besides, Bonatti thinks a planet can't be both Hyleg or alchohoden. If it could be, Van gogh would have lived up to 120 years. I haven't run into any technique that divides the major years into 4 or something like that.

Some of you guys disagreed when I said Moon would subtract 25 years beacuse you think Moon is a natural benefic. It is not the case here. Moon squaring Mars does create serious effects in peoples lives who have it. It makes the person aggresive, complicated with his feelings and they often tend to have nervous mood. It makes subconscious tense. How can we say that it will not effect natives longevity, if Moon is somehow related to it. We only concentrate on formality of rules but we don't question what they bring to life and how they effect us.

Some of you guys disagreed when I said Moon would subtract 25 years beacuse you think Moon is a natural benefic. It is not the case here. Moon squaring Mars does create serious effects in peoples lives who have it. It makes the person aggresive, complicated with his feelings and they often tend to have nervous mood. It makes subconscious tense. How can we say that it will not effect natives longevity, if Moon is somehow related to it. We only concentrate on formality of rules but we don't question what they bring to life and how they effect us.

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Jupiter 1st, I?m sorry if I was not able to be clear enough in my first post.
The Moon aspects the Sun by sign, since Sagittarius behold Aries, but not by degree. It would be enough the aspect by sign)if we needed desperately an Alchocoden for the Sun, but we didn?t because the Sun in Aries( and the Moon in Taurus) do not need any Alchocoden.

The other fact is that the Moon is afflicted not only because she squares Mars, but much more seriously because she is with the Node. Since Valens a Moon squaring or in conjunctio to a Node is a disaster. And we observe this in our dayly practice and not only because the old masters said.

If you had not any planet to consider the Hyleg of the chart I agree that Mars would be an option. But Mars is out of sect, he has not dignity in the ASC nor in the place of the Moon, or Saturn, or Mercury or Jupiter. He has dignity in the place of the Sun. Then, why not to pick the Sun in this case?
Since the figure is diurnal, so he loses points, because he is nocturnal.
Ptolemy said tho pick as Hyleg in diurnal nativities the Sun if it was in the 10th or 11th. We don?t need to look further. This Sun is in the 10th by whole signs and in the 11th by quadrants.
We have, in my point of view, to depart from premisses to get to the conclusions.
Not the other way around.
It?s okay that Van Gogh lived only 37 years, but, being the Sun the obvious Hyleg what was the kind of thing that cut this powerful Sun?

That should have been our question.

I tried to answer this kind of question with the ways I have in hands in the present stage of my studies;-)

I hope that my post was a little more understandable now.

Cl?lia

Moon squaring Mars does create serious effects in peoples lives who have it. It makes the person aggresive, complicated with his feelings and they often tend to have nervous mood. It makes subconscious tense

Hi,
first of all, I am not taking sides, as I am not particularly invested in this discussion: but I was wondering in the example above, why are you assuming that this particular effect would be the effect of moon over mars. It seems more logical to assume that it would be the effect of mars over moon. I would like to read your reasoning.

Best regards

Hi all,

The maximum human lifespan is about 120 years.
If alcocoden the Sun or the Moon and the total value of the life force exceeds the limit of 120 years, we have to consider the crisis.
The appropriate division seems half and quarter. It is not very practical examples, so you need to be careful.

Horoscope Vincent van Gogh.

Sun meets all the conditions as alcocoden.
It is in exaltation, triplicitet, hayz and angular house. It gives 120 years.

I use a modified Arabic method(Abenragel,IbnEzra,Alcabitius,Montulmo). I use aspects through sign, antiscia, contraantiscia, reception, etc..

Aspects:

Sun trine Jupiter and Moon
Sun conjunction Mercury
Although Sun does not see Saturn, Mars and Venus, but Mars and Venus has to the Sun contraantiscium.
Jupiter is strong in his house.
Moon is in conjunction with Jupiter and because working as a benefice.
Moon so added years.
Venus is more or less neutral.
Mars years of decreases.
Trine Mercury with Jupiter and conjunction with hyleg, can therefore add anything through combustion(usb).

Best regards

Petr

Petr wrote:Hi all,

The maximum human lifespan is about 120 years.
If alcocoden the Sun or the Moon and the total value of the life force exceeds the limit of 120 years, we have to consider the crisis.
The appropriate division seems half and quarter. It is not very practical examples, so you need to be careful.

Nice to read you again, really interesting post

margherita

Clelia Romano wrote:If you had not any planet to consider the Hyleg of the chart I agree that Mars would be an option. But Mars is out of sect, he has not dignity in the ASC nor in the place of the Moon, or Saturn, or Mercury or Jupiter.

Clelia, Mars has dignity in the Asc. He is the triplicity ruler of Cancer and he trines it.

By saying "Sun does not need an alchohoden" do you actually mean he is both hyleg and alchohoden?

Clelia, Mars has dignity in the Asc. He is the triplicity ruler of Cancer and he trines it.

By saying "Sun does not need an alchohoden" do you actually mean he is both hyleg and alchohoden?

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Hi Margherita:

Yes, the majority of the ancient masters, Omar,Aboali, Montulmo, Bonatti, etc agree about that:
I?m reading a lot about this because I?ll present to my students this subject of life expectancy in this next Wednesday: so I was reviewing Montulmo and, that man was a brilliant mind!

I think that in Van Gogh?s case even the Sun being the Hyleg and the Alchododem if you find a planet, as we found the Moon, in aspect to it you can consider it as adding years ( even if it is difficult to live more than 120 years)! but in the present case the Moon will give her minor years subtracted by ( can?t remember the quantitiy just now)by the years for being in conjunction with the South Node.

I agree with Petr when he considers the antiscia. It is perfectly in accord with what I?m reading in Montulmo, who quotes Omar, Aboali and Ben Ragel. If a potential Hyleg needs an Alchocoden and one of his lords is in antiscia with him, this lord can be the Alchocodem, if you do not find other, and even not having an aspect, only by antiscia.

When I?ll find myself apt I?ll write an article!

best

Cl?lia

Hello Clelia,

Hi Margherita:

Yes, the majority of the ancient masters, Omar,Aboali, Montulmo, Bonatti, etc agree about that:
I?m reading a lot about this because I?ll present to my students this subject of life expectancy in this next Wednesday: so I was reviewing Montulmo and, that man was a brilliant mind!

that's not my post, I generally follow Ptolemy, who did not mention alcochoden.

I hate this accountancy of planets (I'm not saying it does not work, just it is not easy) .

And the methods have not exactly the same meaning: as Bezza writes, the system of hyleg and alcochoden considers the length of life as an a priori, in Ptolemy method life is cut "during life" if I can write like that, when the planet meets the anareta.

It's not a case that method mentioned by Ptolemy of adding and subtracting years was never used, just by Placido, and we don't know if it was the same method Ptolemy thought.

In every case I believe that the method of hyleg/alcochoden works, just it is a little sophisticated, let us say like that.

It will be nice reading some article of you about your research, if you post in your blog,

margherita