Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hello Dr H,

I had one basic question.
If an event is shown by a primary direction, is the same event shown in some form in the solar return? or vice-versa?

In your book 'A Rectification Manual', you wrote -
"The effects of the solar return or any other predictive technique are additive.
Solar returns do not blend their influences with the natal figure"
I didn't understand this quite well. Could you elaborate on this if possible?

Thanks

jean-baptiste morin book 23 chapter 4 goes into relocated solar returns.. then there is the idea of relocated charts which jim lewis did a very good job presenting to the world of astrology.. it would seem some want to work with a relocated chart and some don't.. i am not sure how much of this has to do with the particular style of the astrologer, but my personal experience is relocated charts have great bearing on life and events..

reading morins book 23 right now, i see he factors in location and time in a fluid manner.. the way i understand many practicing astrology today - time is fluid but the location remains static at the place of ones birth.. i think morin would relate to the work of jim lewis, but he isn't around for us to know.. at the very least he considers place and time as relevant to the unfoldment of events for a person and not stuck in the place of a persons birth if they are no longer 'located' in the same place..

The way I see it, when a person is born something ? a life ? is set into motion. Radix means root. When the person is born and acquires a natal, or radix, chart the root is set into the earth. Most astrological work is done with that radix chart. Thus, all returns remain valid for that location.

On a more superficial or surface level relocated returns can be descriptive. BUT ? not the off-to-Vegas-for-a-birthday-bash sort of relocated chart. Sometimes I get cranky, and such silliness really gets me going. If a relocated chart is used it needs to be based on the current home, the place where the personal belongings, the job, friends, and daily routine are to be found. That is where the personal energy, focus and consciousness are to be found. But the natal return is always the foundation and can be used without any reference to a relocated chart.

In my case, at the age of 4 years and 1 month we moved over 1000 miles away. I am still in the same region. I've found the natal location to be best, with interesting and relevant things to be found using the current home location. The same for work I've done with the charts of celebrities and historical persons. However, I can't make any claims for having done a thorough job of research.

kirk,

i agree with you.. this ciro fellow seems to be treating relocation as some type of entertaining circus act for his clients.. i think it is a bad joke what he is doing myself..

Hi James,

I had his solar return book. It was beautiful, printed on quality paper. It smelled fantastic. I bought it used and it was still in perfect shape.

I became completely disgusted with it and its pomposity. I sold it - as had the person who owned it before me.

Maye I can provoke [again] the discussion of using relocated Solar Returns or not, by quoting something from his website I read recently:

Case #3 ? This is an unpublished and ? in my view ? a truly spectacular case. This is the case of my daughter Laura?s birthday of 2001, compared with that of her astral twin. We have been told that her astral twin ? who is the daughter of a good friend of mine ? was born in the same city, only twenty minutes after my daughter. Nevertheless, from reconstructions that I have made in retrospect, over the years, I think that the difference between the two births is of ten minutes only.
Laura was born in Naples, Italy, on the 27th of May 1975 at 11:25 pm. Had they spent their birthday in Naples that year, both charts of SR would have indicated horrible consequences, perhaps the worst that you can imagine. Their Sun conjunct Saturn would have been in the Twelfth House of SR; four celestials would have occupied the 12th altogether, and Mars would have been in the 6th. Both were warned and both were supposed to relocate their SR to Australia. In fact, my daughter went to a very special place called Monkey Mia. Despite the ?simian? name, this is a magical place with bungalows on the sea, where you can pet the dolphins coming ashore and ?making friends? with tourists. So, Laura spent her birthday there and two months after, she married. Then she settled down near my home; in April she underwent eye surgery to have her fairly serious myopia removed; then she started to get going into different directions to find a real job.
Let us give a conventional name to her astral twin, let us call her Ilena. Well, she could not leave for relocation and this is, in short, the story that Ilena herself reported of her annus horribilis. The day after her birthday, Ilena?s brother was hospitalized for an emergency caused by a severe acute disease. He remained one month there in a state between life and death. Ilena spent much time at her brother?s bedside. Three days after her birthday, she was having a meal when one of her molars simply broke. She had to take antibiotics for a month because the infection caused by this event was not treated properly. Despite having been working for ages, she lost her job and was left unemployed throughout the year. After a seven year love story, her boyfriend broke with her and she fell into a period of depression.
Those who claim that it is necessary to cast the chart of SR considering the place of birth or that of the habitual residence of the subject, regardless of his/her actual location in the moment of the SR itself, are kindly required to step forward and explain this case, if they can.
Of course my friend authorized me, if needed, to provide Ilena?s full and true personal details in case that someone suggested that everything is invented and not having proper scientific arguments.

Source:
http://www.solarreturns.com/Solar_Returns_book.htm#4

The actual charts are on his website.

Thanks for posting, Ile. I will look more deeply to this on Friday but I do note that, Sidereally and without relocating, the ASC of the revolution is in a different place. The first is in Virgo, ruled by that 5th house Mercury in his own sign (repeated and making a phasis both times), while the second girl has Libra on the ASC of the revolution activating the 6th house Venus (who is also in the revolution 6th) and in both times she is afflcited by the out-of-sect malefic. There are clear differences in the year already without even going any further.

Also note the revolution Moon transiting the first girl's 7th house but by the time of the second one, it is in the 6th.

Konrad wrote:Thanks for posting, Ile. I will look more deeply to this on Friday but I do note that, Sidereally and without relocating, the ASC of the revolution is in a different place. The first is in Virgo, ruled by that 5th house Mercury in his own sign (repeated and making a phasis both times), while the second girl has Libra on the ASC of the revolution activating the 6th house Venus (who is also in the revolution 6th) and in both times she is afflcited by the out-of-sect malefic. There are clear differences in the year already without even going any further.

Also note the revolution Moon transiting the first girl's 7th house but by the time of the second one, it is in the 6th.

Hi Konrad,

Thanks for the information.
Another person who studied Ciro's and Morin's revolutions given in their books (both using relocated SR) told me that on very little charts from more then 100 the AC and MC degree actually changed in a significant way.

I'm reading the cook-book delineations of the planets in SR charts given in Ciro's website, and I found some very interesting 'synhronicities' with my own revolutions from the past.

Jupiter In the Third ? With this position, many people purchase a new car. In other cases, their car might be stolen. This position is particularly favourable for studying, reading, writing, competitions, examinations, and so on. There can be a moment of glory for a brother or sister of the subject.

Last year Jupiter was in my SR 3rd. I bought a car.
My brother had a great year and success in his field of profession. He had great recognition and honors.

Saturn In the Sixth ? It is a bad period for health. Old ailments may evolve into chronic diseases during this year. Some serious health problem may progress. Trouble with teeth and bones. The work environment may become hostile or dull. This position may herald a possible loss of employment, or your working conditions may become more onerous. This is a bad time to hire collaborators. One of your employees may resign or you may be forced to dismiss him/her. Trouble with employees or caused by employees

In my current revolution (which is toward its end) I had all of the above.
From the first day of the revolution I had teeth problems and went to a dentist several times this year.

I had problems and troubles caused by co-workers. Now, he says "employees" and I don't have an employees, but I work as a composer and there are people paying me for a song which is actually that I'm their employee in a way. Though, I want to name them "co-workers".
On the other hand, this Saturn in my revolution 6th, is ruler of the 7th in the nativity, so, the subject of co-workers is activated in any case [even if we dismiss the 6th as pertaining to the implementation of my skills or to represent the subject of co-workers].

I just want to note, that if I happen to buy a reading from Ciro, he would have been right about many points.

Venus In the Twelfth ? Possible sentimental scandals. The subject is forced to provide help, possibly nursing assistance, to a loved one. A secret love affair. Gossip spreading about the subject?s moral conduct. Possible suffering from love. With this position, the subject may betray, although it is more likely to suffer betrayals. Possible end of a relationship. Loss of money. Possible hospitalization (the can be more than one). Possible abortion. In a limited extent, this is a protective combination for the subject?s health, although it can have many drawbacks, including those described above.

All of the above underlined is true for my last year revolution.
I had a love affair, it was in a way secret, because it finished before the decision to announce it publicly was made.
There was a gossip spread about me and my moral conduction.
I had romantic 'suffering'.
And I had relationship ended.

All is true.
The thing is that Venus was Lady of the Year, and I think, this is why she was accentuated. If she was in revolution's 12th, and not a Time Lord, it may be that nothing would happened or something of not so big importance.

I can go on and on. I found few more true things in these cook-book delineations.

Edit:
Just to note that I use SR for the birth place. But either way, I live only 100km away from my birth place, so the difference in the revolution is not significant.

Edit:Just to note that I use SR for the birth place. But either way, I live only 100km away from my birth place, so the difference in the revolution is not significant.

No, it doesn't much affect mine either but this man's example is hardly as significant as he makes out. You would know this regardless of the zodiac used if you direct the ASC to find pairs of time-lords as these will be different in both nativities.

Does his book have many examples of this sort of astro-twin? I think these people would be the best to study to really see how much weight to give to the different methods in the collection of annual techniques.

Hi Konrad,

I haven't read his whole book on Transits and Solar Returns, just some pages of it available on Google Books.

I played a little today with some of the examples his gives in his book by using traditional astrology techniques. Particularly this example:

http://books.google.mk/books?id=8bzbLTA ... lo&f=false
(I would appreciate if someone could tell me how to put this link under "HERE")

My rough translation from Italian would be:

27 of February 1983 was a blackest day for Adele Faccio: her son Dario was arrested upon a suspicion that he belongs to the Red Brigades (Marxist-Leninist terrorist organization, based in Italy).
Transits upon the natal chart were as follows: Pluto trine Uranus; Neptune semisextile Mercury, sextile Uranus and sesqui quadrate itself.
Uranus sesqui quadrate MC, Saturn semi-square Moon and trine Uranus. Mars trine Mercury and semi-sextile Uranus.
As you can see, [these] transits are not so heavy and bad, but look at the Solar Revolution: Ascendant in first House, the Sun also in first house, with a strong stellium between the first and twelfth. The score is obviously high 88 of 10.

Now if Ciro don't mind me, I want to look at the event through the traditional astrological tools we have in our disposal.
First thing I?m noticing is that in her 62nd year of life [when event took place], Mercury/Saturn are Firdaria rulers.

Saturn rules 5th! So, Saturn will have to say something about her children.

In nativity, Saturn is in 12th or 8th from the 5th which denotes anxieties, fears, imprisonments and etc.

Distribution of the Ascendant through terms is in terms of Jupiter with Mercury partnering it because it was the last aspect which asc made by body.

Mercury rules 12th, it is the house of bad spirit and bad luck. Also, Jupiter who is distributor is on the cusp of this twelfth house, and Jupiter is ruler of the sign of annual profections [Sagittarius].

It is clear that 12th house is accentuated, and Saturn is contrary to the sect in favor speaking of a malefic who would be kind of more problematic.

Furthermore, Lot of Children (Asc + Jupiter ? Saturn) is in 9? Libra which also falls in 12th mundane division.

Jupiter, on the day when the son was arrested is in 9? Sgitarrius making exact sextile to it, and we know what accidentally Jupiter brings by placement in 12th. Abu Ma?shar continually says throughout his works that planets often Introduce their significations through the rays they make.

The partner of the Firdaria ruler, when takes the disposition of the years, accentuates a commingling of the two planets alongside their accidental significations, so when we now know that Saturn [contrary to the sect malefic] takes the disposition from retrograde Mercury ruler of 12th [or 8th from the 5th if you like], we know that there will be an anxiety in regard to children.

Relationship between the sub-lord and lord of the firdaria is very important. If the sub-ruler is a good planet with good accidental significations, that planet will bring assistance and help to the general ruler of the Firdariyyah, and contrary if the case is not such; as Saturn in our example: he is nasty, that's for sure! Saturn rules 4th and 5th and is in 12th, malefic contrary to the sect. Abu Ma'shar in Liber Mysterium says that malefics are even more nastier whenever they rule ?the wicked places? as he calls 6/12/ 4 and 7th!

Saturn here rules 4th and is in the 12th! So he has signification of the two of the ?wicked houses?. He will bring anxiety in relation to home and foundations (4th) and in relation to children (5th).

This Saturn in the revolution falls exactly on the SR ASC, denoting that the accidents which signifies will be brought to the native!

Now, someone would ask why to the native when we look at an accident of her son. Well, accident of her son is for sure not a non-significant accident of herself. When I speak about "accidents", what I mean is actually "happenings" whether good or bad.

Until now we have enough testimonies to say: ?In this year, there will be an anxiety and suffering because of children?.
This is what I would have to say before hand [probably]. I don't have enough testimonies to say: ?Your son will be arrested on 27 of February 1983?. I wouldn't guessed that.

I know that his is a hindsight, but how else do we learn this Art?!

Now, if we take testimony from Ciro's cook-book delineations we would double the assurances of what we already said:

Saturn in SR 1st house ? Virtually always, it implies an element of trouble, of growth through a small or great misfortune.

Furthermore, Dodecatemoria of SR Saturn falls in 6? Libra conjuncting natal Lot of Children.

Now, when we know that there are indications of trouble, and in which somehow children are involved, we would profect the 5th sign to assure in the testimonies we noted.

Profecting the 5th sign we come to 7th Aries and Mars becomes Lord of the profected 5th. And we have Mars on IC or in the12th from 5th which also points to imprisonment, anxiety and suffering of the children of this woman.

If we take Jupiter as Lord of the Year, even though there are planets in the sign of the annual profections, and read what Abu Ma'shar has to say, we would find very intriguing passage:

?If Jupiter were the Lord of the Year and in both the nativity and the revolution appearing retrograde or under the rays, or in an alien place, or occidental or in the domicile of a malevolent, or cadent from the angles and in contrary places, it takes away the renown of him whose revolution it is, and decreases his luckiness, and puts down his glory. It even signifies a multitude of expenses and a troublesome pouring out of riches, and he will do these things with a voluntary and spontaneous will, for the reason that he craves praise from many people; he will even be saddened on account of parents and children, and certain noble persons.? [On Solar Revolutions, Dykes translation, emphasis mine].

Let's weight down this Jupiter.
Abu Ma'shar says to look in BOTH the nativity and revolution.
In nativity Jupiter is cadent in bad house and in an contrary place (detriment).
It is in a domicile of an accidental malefic (Mercury) and alongside with Malefic planet.
In the revolution he is combust, just getting out of cazimi by longitude.
He is also in domicile of malefic.

So, we have Jupiter of a bad state in BOTH charts.
Jupiter naturally signifies children, this is why Abu Ma'shar says that if Jupiter is Lord of the Year, and he is in a bad state BOTH in the nativity and revolution, he will bring sadness on account of children!