Skyscript Astrology Forum

Posted: **Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:59 pm**

Clelia Romano wrote:Hello Goran:

you said:
I don't think this can be reduced to a question of Ptolemy's opinion vs. others. The Sun is clearly capable of being anareta.
It can be anareta, and all the planets can be as well. But this does not change the idea that Sun and Moon are the lights, specially the Sun is the generator principle and the more important "planet", the only to have its own light which is lent to all the other planetes.
The Sun and the Moon, the luminary of night and that is the luminous body nearer the earth has a not controverse meaning of the preferred hyleg or givers of life, beyond all the other points and planets: they come first and the same Ptolemy teaches us that in absence of Sun and Moon as hyleg to use the planet with more fortitude in the place of them.
But these big lords are subject to time, as all the others, or saying in other words, life is subject to time, so when the circumbulations arrive to the point of death, the universal givers of life of course are a big part of the scenery. If they are not able to bring life anymore, then you can say in a figurative way that they are " causing death", but this is the same as saying that the sky is cloudy and somber because the Sun killed the light.
In other words, the Sun, having so much power as giver of life, if his job is still done, and it is time, the person will die. We can see that the time is coming using predictive techniques.

Clelia

Well, death can ensue prior to the expiration of the years signified by the dignified Sun/Moon as in the Ledger's chart. What I'm saying is that, for instance, a bad contact between the Sun/Moon via primary directions, together with appropriate solar return/profections indicators can cause death much sooner than shown by alcochoden's years - or as you put it, before the Sun's/Moon's job is done.

Goran

Posted: **Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:27 pm**

Hello Goran!

Well, death can ensue prior to the expiration of the years signified by the dignified Sun/Moon as in the Ledger's chart. What I'm saying is that, for instance, a bad contact between the Sun/Moon via primary directions, together with appropriate solar return/profections indicators can cause death much sooner than shown by alcochoden's years - or as you put it, before the Sun's/Moon's job is done.

I have 2 big questions in Ledger?s chart. The first one is if he was really born at this time. If this was an A or B Rodden chart I would open the Astrodatabank to verify how much persons with Sun and Moon domiciliated and angular, with both of this features at once, lived a so small time. The 2nd question is that, if the chart is the real one, the Moon is some minutes more than 5 degrees before the angle. Masha?allhah for example would say that the Moon was in the 3rd house, even if she was few minutes before the 5th degree. In this case he will not accept her as Hyleg. But other authors would accept her gladly because the Moon in the 3rd house is the house of her joy. But for Masha?allha, however, the POF would be the Hyleg and Saturn the Alchocodem, giving his small years, 30 years. ( I?m using the protocol contained in On reception, translation R.Hand)
Zoller also relates a case of a friend of his having the Sun in Aries in the 1st house who lived only 60 years. Mars was in the 6th opposing to something in the 12th, I have to review the text. All the medieval authorities ( that I can remember) agree that if the years of the alchocodem are not completed the person can cope with a big problem against their life but will not die.

I would like to do a good research, but my desktop has problems and is in the technician to be fixed and the notebook does not run the Astrodatabank, where I have all my data.
There is the possibility that the Sun in Aries is not able to be Hyleg and Alchocodem, because he is ruled by a malefic?My father has this configuration, Sun in Aries in the 9th and is 92 years old now. But he has Mars angular in Scorpio?.

Many variables, hu?

best

Clelia

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:29 am**

Hello,
margherita:

But as I always say, Ptolemaic method is the only one we have tons of examples.

If by examples, we mean chart exemplification of techniques (as it should be defined), then Ptolemy did not give any. If by examples, we mean exemplification of techniques, then yes, Ptolemy usually lists out methods of doing analysis and what they mean (which were copied by many authors after him).

Valens on the other hand, gives lots of technqiues (albeit not in a very systematic way) but he gave more than a hundred chart examples (no doubt that he was a practitioner, whereas it is doubtful that Ptolemy was!).

In the alleged chart of Heath Ledger, the sun is in the first house and sign. There are 4 conditions of a chart that we have to be extra careful because our decision on these conditions may change the delineation signficantly and Sun close to ascendant is one of them. In this case, sun is below the horizon which suggests a night chart if our definition of day/night is simply geometical consideration of sun's position relative to the horizon. But astrologers were (and we hope still are) visual astrologer practitioners. If the sun is just a few degrees below the horizon, we should consider it as a day chart (as a simple visual observation will bear this out). In Heath's case the sun is 42 minutes of angle below the horizon (altitude not longitude difference!). This is less than a degree, so his is a day chart.

I would say that sun is hyleg and a strong candidate of alchocoden. This is because for a day chart when sun is hyleg and he is in Leo or Aries, he becomes a strong candidate of alchocoden. Similarly, for a night chart when moon is hyleg and she is in Cancer or Taurus, she becomes a strong candidate of alchocoden.

As I mentioned in a different thread, whatever numbers we arrive at using alchocoden only gives us the figure for vitality. A strong anaretic direction/solar return/profection/transit could kill before years of the alchocoden is reached and a weak anaretic direction/... could also kill after the alchocoden years is reached.

I am still not convinced in the application of these methods for deaths related to suicide and "self-initiated" substance abuse.

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:29 am**

Hello Astrojin

astrojin wrote: If by examples, we mean chart exemplification of techniques (as it should be defined), then Ptolemy did not give any. If by examples, we mean exemplification of techniques, then yes, Ptolemy usually lists out methods of doing analysis and what they mean (which were copied by many authors after him).
Valens on the other hand, gives lots of technqiues (albeit not in a very systematic way) but he gave more than a hundred chart examples (no doubt that he was a practitioner, whereas it is doubtful that Ptolemy was!).

Obviously Ptolemy himself does not give any example, but many Renaissance authors give tons. Were they true to Ptolemy? Who cares

They are the cream of astrologers of all times, famous for their predictions come true.

As I mentioned in a different thread, whatever numbers we arrive at using alchocoden only gives us the figure for vitality. A strong anaretic direction/solar return/profection/transit could kill before years of the alchocoden is reached and a weak anaretic direction/... could also kill after the alchocoden years is reached.

Yes, as Martin mentioned in the beginning of the thread Ledger died with the Saturn direction to the Sun (it falls on March 2008, semiarc, Ptolemy key).

And obviously Saturn trine together with the Sun (it's diurnal chart for me too) hits Ascendant, which is the general significator for the body.

margherita

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:55 am**

I've been thinking about the directions signifying death. Is it only the hyleg directed to a killing planet which will signify it or any of the 5 places?

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:57 am**

Zoller also relates a case of a friend of his having the Sun in Aries in the 1st house who lived only 60 years. Mars was in the 6th opposing to something in the 12th, I have to review the text. All the medieval authorities ( that I can remember) agree that if the years of the alchocodem are not completed the person can cope with a big problem against their life but will not die.

As always, one example doesn't prove nor disprove anything. If we discard the Sun in Aries as alcochoden in this case and go straight to its ruler, Mars, it would also have difficulties providing 60 years of life by being cadent and probably also in aversion to the Sun(if I remember correctly, it was Ptolemy alone who allowed for hyleg/alcochoden relationship without an aspect) - other factors not being taken into account, of course. I also think that all the medieval authorities would have a big problem justifying so many premature deaths happening in their time as well as ours by sticking firmly to this rule of life being protected as long as the years of the alcochoden aren't spent. Astrology as a man - made system is fallible and is pretty limited in its capabilities - let's try not to forget this.

There is the possibility that the Sun in Aries is not able to be Hyleg and Alchocodem, because he is ruled by a malefic?My father has this configuration, Sun in Aries in the 9th and is 92 years old now. But he has Mars angular in Scorpio?.
Many variables, hu?

I'm not saying I read everything available on hyleg/acochoden issue, but I've never bumped into this piece of information - could you provide us with a source of this claim?
As for your father, the length of his life fits nicely with the Sun in Aries being simultaneously hyelg/alcochoden.On the other hand, if we take Mars as alcochoden, it would only grant him 66 years(his greater years) - again, without taking other factors into account which may magnify the time span alloted by applying to alcochoden.

The Sun/Moon in their greatest dignities and angular are able to provide 120/105 years(theoretically) - how many people live that long in reality? There is a big discrepancy between the number of people having strong alcochoden and the length of life actually realized(being shorter than expected/indicated).The same goes for those who live substantially longer than 'promised' by the state of their alcochoden.

Greetings,
Goran

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:49 pm**

cor scorpii wrote:(if I remember correctly, it was Ptolemy alone who allowed for hyleg/alcochoden relationship without an aspect)

Once again, there is nothing on the hyleg/alcochoden relationship in Ptolemy, because there is no alcochoden. As simple as that.

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:08 pm**

I guess I didn't remember it correctly

Goran

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:36 pm**

Zoller also relates a case of a friend of his having the Sun in Aries in the 1st house who lived only 60 years. Mars was in the 6th opposing to something in the 12th, I have to review the text. All the medieval authorities ( that I can remember) agree that if the years of the alchocodem are not completed the person can cope with a big problem against their life but will not die.

Goran said:

As always, one example doesn't prove nor disprove anything. If we discard the Sun in Aries as alcochoden in this case and go straight to its ruler, Mars, it would also have difficulties providing 60 years of life by being cadent and probably also in aversion to the Sun(if I remember correctly, it was Ptolemy alone who allowed for hyleg/alcochoden relationship without an aspect) -

I think that an example can prove, yes. It can prove that the theory was wrong.The man I used as example was not wanting to die , was not a suicide or a drug addict.

Mars, being the rule of the ASC and falling amiss in a bad house did not bode well if you suppose 120 years of life. I would not use Mars as Alchocodem or as Hyleg, differently of what you understood I would. I was saying that we have to look the chart as a whole. The Sun in Aries in the ASC or in the 10th is unable to provide its great years if the chart can?t support that.
In this kind of cases the best is to take the Sun and verify the problematic directions he will cope to. If in that time some benefic is not interfering the native will die. This is my theory and I?m trying to work with it, in the present time of my knowledge. Maybe later, studying more, I will have a different approach.

There is the possibility that the Sun in Aries is not able to be Hyleg and Alchocodem, because he is ruled by a malefic[/b]?My father has this configuration, Sun in Aries in the 9th and is 92 years old now. But he has Mars angular in Scorpio
?.

Gora said:

I'm not saying I read everything available on hyleg/acochoden issue, but I've never bumped into this piece of information - could you provide us with a source of this claim?

No, I can?t. I never read that in any author. But it is what I learned studying many charts. You can?t give all the years provided by a planet if you have malefics in bad places, benefics weaker than them, etc.
On the other hand, if you have benefics strong by place and essential nature you can think that the native will live more than the alchocodem lesser years.

The ancient authors forgot to say:" use the common sense";-)

As for your father, the length of his life fits nicely with the Sun in Aries being simultaneously hyelg/alcochoden.On the other hand, if we take Mars as alcochoden, it would only grant him 66 years(his greater years) - again, without taking other factors into account which may magnify the time span allotted by applying to alcochoden
.

Yes, I agree. But as I said before, I would not take Mars as alchocodem, even because he is inconjunct to the Sun, which is a good thing, BTW.

The Sun/Moon in their greatest dignities and angular are able to provide 120/105 years(theoretically) - how many people live that long in reality? There is a big discrepancy between the number of people having strong alcochoden and the length of life actually realized(being shorter than expected/indicated).

The same goes for those who live substantially longer than 'promised' by the state of their alcochoden.
I fully agree: and it is because the length of life depends not only on the Hyleg ( and Alchocodem) but on all the rest of significators.
So, how to predict the length of life? I confess I?m estimating the number of years approximately, more than X, less than Y, and through the directions and other kind of predictions tools, using potential killers in the chart, versus theirs behavior, I can reach a time when life will suffer some or much harm.

I?m translating Masha?allhah so his teachings are very present in my mind: he does not accept the Sun in Aries or Leo or the Moon in Cancer or Taurus as Hyleg and Alchocodem: as I said before, he would chose as Hyleg, in Heather?s case the POF and Saturn as Alchocodem. The Moon would be discharged because he only accepts an alchocodem with dignity of rulership or exaltation ( for the luminaries). As Saturn smaller years are 30 we can see that it would have worked fine in Ledger?s longevity, with or without drugs.

Best

Clelia

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:00 pm**

Clelia, the Moon is domicile. She is convenient for hyleg position. Domicile Moon is a stronger hyleg candidate than exalted Sun. I didn't try to find 29 for Ledger since I've already known he died at that age. I strictly applied the rules and found 29. I did it earlier for Van Gogh as well. I was shocked when I found Van Gogh's life span astrologically. I am not that stunned now because I know that this method usually gives accurate results. In Ledger's case Venus gives 29 years. It is not a coincidence. Check the aspects and position of Venus. Can you deny that she gives 29 years? How many of you guys have Venus giving 29 years of life period? Ledger has it and he died at 29. It is a very specific situation. I can hardly think it is a coincidence.

I told you guys earlier that Domicile/Exalted lights can not be both hyleg and alchohoden. Clelia and others objected to that. I now see that Clelia and many of you guys understood it can't be that way.

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:55 pm**

Hello Jupiter1st!

Maybe you?re right taking Venus years, but as she is with the SN I would give 1/4 less of her total years. That is the rule. But, maybe she is distant enough to be considered in body conjunction with SN. Anyway, she is still heading towards the Node and she is less than 12? from it. Another possible idea is that she, Venus, is exalted, so it can serve as a compensation for not lose 1/4 of her years.
Your hyphotesis is coherent, I agree. If he lived 29 years, he was in a profection of 7th house, ruled by Venus. The Solar Revolution ( I don?t know where he was in his last birthday!) for his city, had Venus in the 12th in Pisces, the Sun in Aries in the ASC and Mars, lord of the house of death in the 4ht in the same position Jupiter was when he was born, Not to mention the Moon in the 12th in Pisces conjunct Venus of his natal chart.

The theory of giving to the Sun and Moon the place of hyleg and alchocodem when they are exalted or domiciliated works perhaps if you do not find a planet receiving them and aspecting them. You can take them if they are not cadent and inconjunct to de ASC as Hyleg and Alchocodem and depending on the whole chart give them lot of years:

then you try a fine tuning using directions to have an idea of the dangerous episodes against life.

My father, for example, has the Sun in Aries in the 9th and Jupiter in the ASC in Leo. The Sun is at 23? and Jupiter at 7?. Very far. If Jupiter was the Alchocodem he would live 79 years. When he was 79 he was looking for a good woman to marry again. Now he is 92.No planets are in aspect ( using orbs) with his Sun. This is interesting, I think.

nice example Jupiter, but a tricky one: hope we are working with the right data;-)

regards

Clelia

jupiter1st wrote:Clelia, the Moon is domicile. She is convenient for hyleg position. Domicile Moon is a stronger hyleg candidate than exalted Sun. I didn't try to find 29 for Ledger since I've already known he died at that age. I strictly applied the rules and found 29. I did it earlier for Van Gogh as well. I was shocked when I found Van Gogh's life span astrologically. I am not that stunned now because I know that this method usually gives accurate results. In Ledger's case Venus gives 29 years. It is not a coincidence. Check the aspects and position of Venus. Can you deny that she gives 29 years? How many of you guys have Venus giving 29 years of life period? Ledger has it and he died at 29. It is a very specific situation. I can hardly think it is a coincidence.

I told you guys earlier that Domicile/Exalted lights can not be both hyleg and alchohoden. Clelia and others objected to that. I now see that Clelia and many of you guys understood it can't be that way.

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:02 pm**

Thanks for the quick reply Clelia. Can you give your father's birth data. I'd like to examine it.

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Heath Ledger's longevity