It's not just me dear Mark that claims the date of 1st (13th) January 1822 as the "birth date" of modern Greece. The political scientists themselves claim that ?the Declaration of the Political Existence and Independence of the Greek Nation is the constitutive act of the Greek State, whose foundation, legally and historically has to be regarded as from January 1st, 1822". Nick Campion emphasizes this date as well. Even in Greece no Greek astrologer uses the 1975 "constitution chart" as the natal chart of Greece. I' ve encountered this chart (as chart of Greece) in your posts only. If my (sound I think) arguments are not convincing you then I would like to hear more of your arguments on the 1975 Constitutional chart as "the chart of modern Greece".

Thomas Gazis

Hello Thomas,

You may want to check my post above as I was significantly expanding it while you posted.

I am not saying the 1822 chart is not significant I just question its practical utility without a time. As you dont have a time for this chart I would suggest you resort to the traditional principle of using the prior ingress chart.

Nicholas Campion's deserves respect for his exhaustive research. However, he is clearly a modern astrologer. This is shown in his preference for declaration charts. Generally medieval charts were based on a new dynasty or a coronation of a king. Hence the chart at the start of this thread fits the latter picture. They might use an ingress chart prior to the actual coronation. Equally, for a new dynasty they might look at the prior Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in an ingress chart. I do think though if we have an exactly timed chart for a change of government or introduction of a new constitution we should use it.

Sometimes there is no alternative but to use a declaration chart since it clearly coincides with a new government taking power. For example the creation of the state of Israel. I assume your argument is the same with the 1822 chart.

On the whole though constitutional charts are very reliable.

My argument for looking at the constitution chart in 1975 is actually based on traditional astrological reasoning as cited above in my last post. However, I accept this logic is more hazy if a new constitution only makes very minor changes. From my research the the 1975 Greek constitution was more fundamental than that.

Afraid I haven't time to demonstrate the 1975 chart just now as I have other pressing committments on my time. I am somewhat surprised this chart hasn't occured to any Greek astrologers already.

However, I am happy to revisit this. I did make arguments above supporting a strongly Cancerian quality in modern Greece. If you mean tying the chart to various dates in modern Greek history I am happy to do so at a later point when time allows. To be frank you haven't done this yourself yet in regards the 1822 chart!

I do think one can make a good case for the 1974 chart too as this seems to represent the beginning of modern democratic Greece following the end of military rule.

Mark

Dear Mark I would like to quote some lines from my article on modern Greece's national horoscope (you may read it here: http://astro.getforum.org/post3194.html#p3194 )

"It is worth mentioning that some astrologers favour a rather recent birthday for Greece (placing the birth of modern Greece in the period following the fall of the Greek military junta in 1974). Some (European mostly) astrologers for example claim that modern Greece's national horoscope should stem out of the date its last Constitution was adopted (on the 11th June 1975 - soon after the collapse of the military dictatorship). But how proper is it to study astrologically a country not using its "foundation" horoscope but what actually is the horoscope of a posterior constitutional "amendment"? If somebody studies the 1st January 1822 Constitution s/he will realize that it is essentially as democratic and advanced as the Constitution of 1975. Thus, on 1975 we did not experience a major constitutional shift in regard to the VERY Greek constitution (the constitution upon which Greece was founded on). We just experienced a shift in regard to the imposed by the military junta regime - a regime that lasted only 7 years, not so many to alter the "soul" of Greece and its original constitution.

Some other astrologers claim that modern Greece's horoscope should stem out of the moment its first post-dictatorship Prime Minister was sworn in - on the 24th of July 1974. But as I explained before, the seven years military junta did not change either the "soul" or the constitution of Greece. Why should we then consider the July 24, 1974 chart as the "national horoscope" of Greece and not the original January 13, 1822 one? If we follow the same reasoning then we should argue that a person is not born when s/he comes out of his/her mother's uterus but when s/he gets married for the second time! We have to be very careful and thorough when we study the intricacies of a national horoscope."

Thomas Gazis

Hello Thomas,

I dont intend to reply on this thread as I have effectively replied to you in my latest post in the ongoing thread: The national horoscope - England's - Greece's cases

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6847

I have set out my reasons in some depth why I fundamentally disagree with your outlook on national charts so further discussion here would lead to unnecessary duplication. Plus the issue isn't just about Greece its your whole perception of how mundane astrology operates that I take issue with.

Mark