Mark wrote:A few degrees further north Aries/Pisces ascends even more quickly. In Oslo, Norway, (59?57) for example it takes just 07?19 degrees!

And in Ume?, Sweden, where my wife was born, they each rise in about 14 minutes of clock time -- approximately 3?30'. Quadrant houses at these latitudes look seriously weird!

mark,

thanks for the link to the thread from 2008. i learned something on the history of pds, but not what i thought.. the article from deb 2005 was also interesting.. i like what she said on page 6! "When you look at the next piece of text, please do not panic ? any term that you need to understand will be explained" - i found that funny!

after reading martin ganstens 'primary directions - astrolgy's old masters technique" and sepharial's 'primary directions - a definitive study' while still waiting 2 months for the arrival of rumen kolev's 2 of 3 books on primary directions, i have read over the language enough times to think some of the information might be penetrating, lol... deb must have wrote that article long before the free morinus software program came out.. i use this program, but can't claim to understand primary directions well enough to explain any of it in the terms i read in the books.. some of us have a more dry mathematical inclination then others - but i do enjoy considering primary directions and how they play at in a particular chart, whether it be me looking beforehand, or after the fact..

the example in the link to debs article of gadbury for king henry's chart and death are used quite a bit to highlight primary directions it seems.. mars directed to the ascendant works out at a rate of about 1 degree per year in this example which one would get off the solar arc direction data as well, except it would be ascendant directed to mars, rather then mars being directed to the ascendant via pd's... this is one of the reasons my brain is trying to get a handle on the distinctions between primary directions and solar arc directions as i find some of the data looks strikingly similar.. you have to do the pd's in converse to see what you would see with solar arc directions going forward, or you could do the reverse - converse solar arc directions in king henrys chart would bring mars to the ascendant in the 40th year.. one wonders how exact the 3 degrees gemini ascendant is, but it is what it is for king henrys chart and obviously works here, so close enough.

James_M wrote:

after reading martin ganstens 'primary directions - astrolgy's old masters technique" and sepharial's 'primary directions - a definitive study' while still waiting 2 months for the arrival of rumen kolev's 2 of 3 books on primary directions, i have read over the language enough times to think some of the information might be penetrating, lol...

I find Martin's book the most intelligible and informative work on the subject I have ever read. I have Sepharials two books on the topic and all three of Rumen Kolev's booklets. Kolev would be my second choice although he is more modern in focus. Its a useful complement to Martin's book as it fills in details of modern advocates of PDs -especially in Germany. He also has some interesting chart examples. Kolev incorporates outer planets.

James_M wrote:

deb must have wrote that article long before the free morinus software program came out..

It was only in 2009. I think her objective was more to give people a feel for what was actually going in in PDs by going through the basic steps of calculation. Its the same reason that motivates some astrology teachers to still get their students to calculate natal charts manually. We all have the software but do we have the understanding to go with it?

James_M wrote:

i use this program, but can't claim to understand primary directions well enough to explain any of it in the terms i read in the books.. some of us have a more dry mathematical inclination then others - but i do enjoy considering primary directions and how they play at in a particular chart, whether it be me looking beforehand, or after the fact..

I have never had any success downloading Morinus so I envy you. I dont think you are alone in finding the maths side rather off putting. Still I have always felt mastering PDs is a mark of a well rounded traditional astrologer.

However, this traditional astrologer thinks PDs are overemphasized in contemporary traditional astrology:

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/astr ... ns-bounds/

James_M wrote:

.. this is one of the reasons my brain is trying to get a handle on the distinctions between primary directions and solar arc directions as i find some of the data looks strikingly similar.. you have to do the pd's in converse to see what you would see with solar arc directions going forward, or you could do the reverse - converse solar arc directions in king henrys chart would bring mars to the ascendant in the 40th year.. one wonders how exact the 3 degrees gemini ascendant is, but it is what it is for king henrys chart and obviously works here, so close enough.

That is an interesting comment.

The Dutch astrologer Wim van Dam makes a similar comment in the article below but notes that the differences become more pronounced between PDs and solar arcs as you move to more northerly latitudes. (That old latitude issue again!). Apart from the radix chart solar arcs take no account of either geographical or planetary latitude as they are exclusively only calculated on the basis of longitude. In the case of in mundo PDs the latitude of planets is factored into the calculation. I am not so clear on the exact distinction for zodiacal PDs and solar arcs but presumably it is connected to the variation in the diurnal movement of each point calculated rather than being moved at a completely uniform rate in longitude in solar arcs.

Hopefully, Martin can give us a more definitive answer to your question.

http://www.astrosoftware.com/wimprimaries.htm

The main speed for p.d.?s is about the same as the solar arcs. It varies from less than half a degree to more than two degrees and as said above, it is different for each point in the horoscope. However, just like Placidus and most other housing systems, it shows a tendency to produce equal houses as one gets closer to the equator. Therefore, primaries tend to coincide with solar arc directions in tropical areas. For European and North American latitudes however, differences can be considerable as we will see. The results will differ depending on the house system used.

Mark

Mark wrote:Hopefully, Martin can give us a more definitive answer to your question.

I'd be happy to, if someone could explain exactly what the question is. (Thanks for the kind words about the book, by the way.)

Wim van Dam's style of primary directions is based on semi-arcs, without latitude, converting arcs of direction to years of life based on the Sun's daily motion in longitude on consecutive days after the birth (a variation on Placidus' method). Possibly the latter is what makes them similar at times to solar arc directions.

hi mark and martin,

i don't want to derail the focus on triplicities even if it has run it's course..

i am running into the same wall i noticed while discussing primary directions verses solar arc directions.. no one wants to offer tangible examples of the technique applied to specific charts too much, or any in a way that might draw more towards using the technique.. that is how i see it anyway..

martin,

i believe i recognize the difference between theoretical and real movement which seems to be part of the bugaboo over the use of solar arc directions verses primary directions. the fact is i am noticing how they cross over and give similar results more then anyone cares to talk about even if one is more theoretical in nature.. do converse in solar arc and the movement is replicated in a similar manner to the directions in the pd's.. i don't really have a question.. i am making observations having come from using solar arc directions and wanting to use, know and understand primary directions better.. here is a question for you - do you know any astrologer that is making predictions using primary directions in real time in advance of the supposed events that connect to the primary directions? i can't seem to find anyone doing much of this, but maybe it happens a lot in private dynamics going on between astrologer and client.. does anyone know? you'd think it would be seen a bit in mundane astrology, but again astrology looks kinda dead with a lot of people talking theory mostly..

James_M

you'd think it would be seen a bit in mundane astrology, but again astrology looks kinda dead with a lot of people talking theory mostly..

That is a quite a sweeping and oversimplified statement.

I agree primaries have languished as an astrological technique for well over a century in the English speaking world. They seem to have been retained and utilised more frequently in German speaking astrology. So this is still a slow process as more people become familiar with the techniques and start to apply them again.

I think Martin's book represents an important step in that direction for traditionalists especially and he is now offering a course exclusively devoted to this.

http://www.martingansten.com/pddc.php

I hope its not too indiscrete of me to mention that I recall Benjamin Dykes telling me last year he was thinking of doing this course himself! I dont think you can ask for a better recommendation than that.

The revival of awareness in the natal work of renaissance astrologers such as Morin has also helped raise more interest in PDs. In fact our very own moderator Tom Callanan has contributed lots of insights into charts here over the years using primaries.

In modern astrology figures such as Bob Makransky, Isaac Starkman and Rumen Kolev have also helped to spread awareness of primary directions.

http://www.dearbrutus.com/primarydirections_1.pdf

With this increasing awareness has come dedicated PD software for primary directions such as Morinus, Placidus (Rumen Kolev) and Polaris (Isaac Starkman) that had helped astrologers utilise various approaches to primaries.

In regards mundane astrology you are right that not many people are utilising them at present but some certainly are. I think the situation will gradually move towards their more widespread use. The late Swiss-German astrologer Alexander Marr used them in rectifying most of his mundane charts. Equally, the Israeli astrologer Isaac Starkman makes extensive use of them. In terms of applying PDs within a traditional context Dr H (Regulus Astrology) has strongly advocated the use of primary directions in his books on mundane astrology.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/America-Born-In ... 0980185629

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rectification-M ... 0980185602

Dr H has for example been using some of the older Persian techniques in his rectified version of the US national chart such a directing the ascendant of a chart through the bounds. I personally think mundane astrology is ideal for primaries since we often have exact times for things like national charts. Along with techniques like solar returns, profections, eclipse charts and of course transits primaries offer a very useful addition to the mundane astrologers toolbox of predictive techniques.

As for your critcism that not much prediction is occuring that could be applied to much of natal astrology too. Equally, why just pick out primaries? In regards mundane I concur there is way too much hindsight astrology going on. We do need more astrologers bold enough to risk getting it wrong. Someone with the courage of their convictions (+predictions) such as Dennis Elwell:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/shipelwell.html

It would be interesting to check your statement out again in 10 years!

Mark

thanks mark,
i am aware of all that, although i haven;t read dr. h's book. it is a sweeping statement and i am making it. cheers james

James_M wrote:

..it is a sweeping statement and i am making it

.

Hi James,

Well fair enough. I think you missed my updated comments in my last post on the lack of prediction. As I said I generally concur with you on that although I dont know why you are singling out primaries especially. Its a more widespread issue than that isn't it?.

Looks like I have helped you run a coach and horses through the topic of the thread.

If anyone has any further comments on triplicities please come back in.

Mark

hi mark,

i wasn't just thinking of primary directions when i made that comment, but astrology in general having moved away from a predictive art to more of something else. it is funny to me, but astrologers have a profusion of predictive tools to work with but no one is making much in the way of predictions.. surely that must strike folks other then just me as odd.

james_m

Mark,

Re: "The late Swiss-German astrologer Alexander Marr used them in rectifying most of his mundane charts."

Alexander Marr

http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologer ... /marr.html
(a memorial)

Peace

James

Hi Mark,

to return to the topic of triplicities, I don't really think there existed a system where the triplicity cycle restarted. Instead, according to Hellenistic astrologers, in every human life the first lord of the triplicity of the ruling luminary hands over its time-rulership to the second lord while the third lord assists for both, as it's clearly written in Valens 2.1-2. (Note that each exposition of this system adds Mercury to the triplicity of Virgo: Dorotheus in Hephaestio 1.6.2 which is missing in Umar's version, the Michigan Astrological Papyrus 3B.6, whereas Valens 2.1.10 has no clear in his intent.)

The tripartite division of life (early, middle and late) is a late development, and it must be attributed to the Persians as an interpolation (which directly contradicts the beginning of the sentence) in Dorotheus 2.3.4 shows. (Otherwise Dorotheus always divides life in two parts.) The question when this handing over occurres is answered by Valens himself, who probably depending on Nechepsos and Petosiris uses ascensional times and planetary periods. He seems to be at great pains to expose their doctrine in a digestable way in 3.11 and in the most part of Book 7. Other astrologers apparently don't bother with this system with the exception of Dorotheus 1.22-23, which, as no Greek parallel is found, can also be a simplification of the description of Valens, interpolated here by Persian editors; even more, the third lord is theoretically (like in Firmicus, Paulus and the Liber Hermetis) or practically (as it can be seen in many example nativities, even in Dorotheus and Valens) omitted, or the whole triplicity lord system is tried to be rationalized (for different approaches see Ptolemy and the mutual source of Antiochus and Porphyry, the echoes of the latter may be found in a possibly 2nd century nativity, POxy. 4277). Therefore it is likely that the validity of this system was already challenged in the early centuries.

Mark,

Re: "The late Swiss-German astrologer Andrew Marr used them in rectifying most of his mundane charts."

Alexander Marr

http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologer ... /marr.html
(a memorial)

Thanks James,

Gosh we have a bewildering array of members called James just now!

I dont think think that memorial is quite correct though in simply describing Alexander Marr as a siderealist.

Isaac Starkman worked extensively with Marr and made the following comment in an old thread:

Isaac wrote:

In all his books and articles Alexander Marr never used the Sidereal Zodiac like Cyril Fagan or Brigadier Firebrance, the editor of Spica. Indeed, he took some of their techniques and applied them into the Tropical Zodiac, like Fagan's PSSR system.

I quote from the foreword of Marr's book Prediction I:

''The discoveries of the eminent astrologer Cyril Fagan split the astrological world into three main camps: Tropical, Sidereal, and what the late Brigadier Firebrance termed "Little Bastard Zodiac", where precession is expunged from charts whilst maintaining the tropical zodiac?I hope to persuade Siderealists that transits to the radix should be applied in the tropical manner, that is, disregarding precession. However, in regard to return charts, both Tropical and Sidereal Solar Returns are valid."