Mark wrote: You have misrepresented what I said here. If you want to distort facts for your whimsical entertainment please dont bring my name into it.

Mark

Whimiscal?

Fine lines, just a hopefully useful piece of satire to expose a certain folly, but you/we did discuss this book's embarrassing contents sometime back you may recall in a not dissimilar light.

Nix wrote:

Whimiscal?

Yes. I would rather explain that privately by PM as this will take us into issues that are probably best discussed off forum. Please check your PM folder.

Fine lines, just a hopefully useful piece of satire to expose a certain folly, but you/we did discuss this book's embarrassing contents sometime back you may recall in a not dissimilar light.

I suspect your 'satirical' style may be lost on many here. Plus many people here may not read the mundane forum where I made my comments. The context was the lack of astrologers who make actual mundane predictions. So for the record I am hardly 'a fan' of Noel Tyl's book (Predictions for a New Millennium (1996). I did give Tyl full credit for actually 'having a go' and setting out his predictions for all to see. A lot braver than sticking something up on a blog and pulling it down if events dont turn out the way you predicted. However, looking at the numerous predictions made in the book Noel Tyl's results have been risible.

Mark

Interesting point and what brings a lot of us into this subject. In theory the 'satirical style', when it appears, might be lost on Air signs. Water signs might belly laugh.

The dilemma, as I see it, is how to respond constructively to Morning Sun's posts, this may depend on what sign s/he is, in theory?

You probably pay more attention to 'predictions' than I do as my interest is primarily in the psyche generating them. I will take your word that this - PULLING DOWN ?is more endemic than I may have previously known about. Someone said to me the other day the reason Noel predicted an alien invasion was the publishers wanted something sexy, is this more than we need to know, or a confirmation of what we may already suspect? I really don?t understand why you give Noel any credit for this book, doesn?t it make all astrologers look like idiots it?s in Alice Bailey territory as I see it.

My intention was not only to collect predictions, but document what happens to clients of astrologers, under certain configurations. As an example, in a previous topic thread, Konrad states:

As for this particular combination (Mars in overcoming square to the Moon) I have seen a few charts where this brings bodily harm to the native when the finer predictive techniques confirm the broader ones. I actually have it myself and have suffered hospitalisations after being attacked and after breaking my foot playing sports in successive years when Mars ruled the bounds of the primary directed Moon and while Mars also afflicted the Moon or the ASC in the revolution.

And I have some files on a terrible burns, getting jobs, losing jobs, when a house sells, and actually recently, this one has made the biggest impression on me yet: the thread in traditional, with prog Saturn on Mc squaring prog Pluto on Asc, (2nd he's) opposing Transiting Uranus in 8th, also forms Tsquare to Prog Saturn and Prog Moon.

I am well aware Trad Astrologers would scoff at using Pluto and Uranus, but if you were to listen to what happened to this person's life, and hear the loss, and stress on the voice you would be convinced also. The Prog Angles shifted to Malefics with hard aspects, it produced REAL EFFECTS. Other methods used also confirmed the losses. I will forever take heed to this type of configuration, just to warn others if I ever see it again, which I hope I never do!! Made me want to just stop doing astrology altogether.

Those are the types of instances that should be preserved, as all the ancients did. And how does one know if the ancient and trad Astrologers just repeated something so often it became true, and is still being practiced and believed. Much like a lesson I learned in grade school, the one and Only tome I cheated. I thought the person knew more than I did, so I cheated on one question and got it wrong!! I have never taken much at face value, unless it bears out to be true through trial and error.

So the point was to preserve the real life experiences of configurations. The Astrologers of old, did not have much of a population to practice on, so their conclusions are for a small sampling of people in their immediate area. Today, we are global, with Astrologers communicating worldwide, and we have to copy definitions of transits and configurations from centuries ago instead of using our own abilities and experiences of clients, friends or family??

Do not get me wrong, the knowledge gained through the centuries has led us here today, but I feel we should also be making gains to leave for future generations, to prove and document the actual events.

MorningSun wrote:Do not get me wrong, the knowledge gained through the centuries has led us here today, but I feel we should also be making gains to leave for future generations, to prove and document the actual events.

For sure, we have to see what actually works and what doesn't but too often it just becomes a few egos telling everyone else THE TRUTH?. It then becomes the "defend your viewpoint" game and the practical examples are forgotten about. Just look at this thread.

MorningSun wrote:That is what I would like to see here. A collection of actual aspects and configurations, with the chart posted, as well as the astrologer stating what actually happened in the person?s life. Then, asking the community for more examples using their vast array of experience as to how many others had clients with the same event occurring with the same aspects.

If you'd like Morning Sun, I can post my example to start things?

Before I post my own, I'd like to show a rather compelling example of this in Ernest Hemingway's nativity.

Here are his details: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hemingway,_Ernest

and his chart is Lahiri Ayanamsa:




What caught my eye here was him having Mars out-of-sect in the ASC. For me this is usually a sign of an accident or injury when Mars is activated. Sure enough, Hemingway was injured by mortar fire in World War 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemingway#World_War_I).

The exact date of the injury was 8th of July 1918. His profected ASC had arrived in Aquarius on the previous Revolution. Natally Mars is in a stake of Aquarius and is overcoming the lord of the year, Saturn. So we have indications of harm to the native this year.

Here is the nativity/revolution bi-wheel for 1917:




First thing I see here is revolution Mars opposed to natal Moon while revolution Moon is in the sign of natal Mars. This seems to confirm the bodily harm shown in the profections. Revolution Mars is also in the sign of the profected Moon while Saturn is combust and conjoined the natal 12th cusp in the revolution.

As for saying when it happened, I will just show the astrological triggers. Around 3 - 4 days before the event, Saturn, lord of the year, went under the beams while transiting the natal 12th (this same trigger exists in one of my own events), so this period of time has a flag. Now we can see what else is going on at this time. There are a few things to look for and not all of them are always present. If we profect the ASC 30 deg a year, on July 8th 1918, it is at 14 Pisces. On the 8th of July, transiting Mars was at 14 Virgo 30 thus triggering the event.

Here is the profection/transit chart:

one persons conversation might be viewed by another as an argument.. for this reason i don't agree or disagree with konrads latest comments in the 947am post.. really, it is much like astrology or anything else.. it is in the eye of the beholder, more then it might be something that everyone shares the same view on..


for this reason i think it is difficult to collect and verify actual events with the use of astrology.. many different techniques are in use and unless one explains them to others who are unfamiliar with them, the collection of the examples may appear meaningless. it reminds me of lists of the 'greatest 100 songs' or something along those lines.. it is very relative to who is compiling the list.. the same would happen here as i see it.. even with those astrologers who worked very hard to offer some sort of statistical basis for there position on astrology and backed it up with 1000's of birth charts for example, and i am thinking the gauquelins research work here - they have been largely dismissed by both the scientific community and a number of folks in the astro community.

so while the idea might be a good one, i don't know how productive it would be. a better way might be to write a book giving all the many examples that you have found work for you, for others interested in specific examples to use and benefit from the data. maybe at some point in the future a collective version of this will happen..

hi konrad,

to offer another technique providing the same result, notice the secondary progressed midheaven making an exact square to natal mars for july 8 1918 chart for hemigway.

i am curious to know if your approach works on the other examples of accidents or injuries in hemigways life as listed on the adb link?
"While serving in the Ambulance Corps in Italy, he was wounded by shrapnel on 7/08/1918. (He was in a car crash in Billings, Wyoming early morning of 4/07/1935, another in London on 6/20/1945, and another in Havana, Cuba on 7/01/1950. He was in two airplane crashes, the first at nightfall of 1/24/1954 in which he was severely injured, and a second plane crash, also in Uganda.) "

Sorry James but I completely disagree with you here and this is what i was talking of in the post earlier. Instead of actually posting examples and demonstrating the techniques taught in the books, we have another post giving a point of view on the topic itself and why it will or will not work.

Morning Sun asked to see a collection of events explained astrologically, using whatever methods, and we have one example in 3 pages of posts. Instead what we do have is irrelevant opinions (as far as the topic is concerned) and attempted thread derailing from the get-go.

Anyway, I will try to post another example later on, if not tomorrow.

thanks for sharing your views either way konrad.. we see life differently.

james_m wrote:hi konrad,

to offer another technique providing the same result, notice the secondary progressed midheaven making an exact square to natal mars for july 8 1918 chart for hemigway.

i am curious to know if your approach works on the other examples of accidents or injuries in hemigways life as listed on the adb link?
"While serving in the Ambulance Corps in Italy, he was wounded by shrapnel on 7/08/1918. (He was in a car crash in Billings, Wyoming early morning of 4/07/1935, another in London on 6/20/1945, and another in Havana, Cuba on 7/01/1950. He was in two airplane crashes, the first at nightfall of 1/24/1954 in which he was severely injured, and a second plane crash, also in Uganda.) "

Yes, I have just looked at the car crash and it does show up. I am going to have some food now, so I will post it later if you want?

Konrad,

I think this is a good start! So we have:

Mars out-of-sect in the Asc in the nativity.

A promise of an accident?

How many other charts and accidents can we find with that configuration? Documentable,? a definite?

I think the activation for the injury can and will show up regardless of what method an Astrologer uses.

Triggers: This can show various triggers with different methods used, however, the operative meaning, is that then: Mars out of sec in the Asc in a nativity, would then promise the accident.

Should be kept simple, only look for that configuration, with accidents. Does it bear true? How many examples can we find?

Dissection only for configurations, then discuss triggers. I think it would work and be useful to apply and collect.

[quote="Konrad"]
What caught my eye here was him having Mars out-of-sect in the ASC. For me this is usually a sign of an accident or injury when Mars is activated. Sure enough, Hemingway was injured by mortar fire in World War 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemingway#World_War_I).

As for saying when it happened, I will just show the astrological triggers. Around 3 - 4 days before the event, Saturn, lord of the year, went under the beams while transiting the natal 12th (this same trigger exists in one of my own events), so this period of time has a flag. Now we can see what else is going on at this time. There are a few things to look for and not all of them are always present. If we profect the ASC 30 deg a year, on July 8th 1918, it is at 14 Pisces. On the 8th of July, transiting Mars was at 14 Virgo 30 thus triggering the event.quote]


If kept simple and dissected we would at least have some basis in fact that this even OCCURED with that placement.

For what its worth, thats my opinion.