Konrad,

I do not understand why we are arguing here today, maybe because of stationary Mercury in Pisces? You of course can give a better deliniation of your chart than me.

I am just saying that according to my understanding Venus must have the final saying on the ultimate outcome of lunar things triggered by Mars overcoming your Moon.

I am not claiming that Venus dominates over Mars in the context of lunar things. The events you mentioned all are of Mars's nature but they have ended as promised by Venus not as by Mars or else we would not have been discussing here if the end had been a martial one. As I said, it's my speculation what would have happened if there had been only this baleful overcoming without Venus's and also Jupiter's protection (which restrains Mars malice via rulership), but with such a powerful overcoming as yours when this configuration is triggered, I would fear some sort of fatal tragedy. I hope that you got my point what I meant by Venus having the final say on the outcome of lunar things.

Regards
Janis

Janis,

I'm not arguing with you, I disagree with your view. I'm just saying Venus didn't have the final say since I was hospitalised and injured, this is not Venusian, it is Martial. She just gave some aid as and how she could. Mars still had the final say. This is contrary to what you are saying should have happened, being hospitalised does not sound like Venus having the final say. A female friend aiding me does sound like Venus influencing the Mars/Moon event.

I believe this sort of principle will work over any chart, not just my own hence me trying to explain my position and the actual theory behind it. I think every dignity and aspect says something different about the event. This is how we can have a man who beats his wife while buying her nice things; testimonies are not added up numerically, they are blended. We can be both dignified benefics and debilitated malefics with the same person and same event. If everything was so static, we wouldn't have people being hugely fat while young but trim and fit while old or people in great illness at the end of a perfectly healthy life.

As for the fatal tradegy, this could only be predicted if there were other strong testimonies against the Hyleg particuarly, there wasn't any here hence me not dying.

hi konrad,

thanks for sharing the identity of the first chart.

konrad and janis,

remember how rulerships, bound rulers and a few other tools astrologers use will change depending on the type of zodiac the astrologer uses. something to keep in mind, and maybe you both already do but it is interesting to think about while reading some of the comments for me at this moment.

Konrad wrote: The first native is the stereotypical lunar person: lazy, unambitious, a dreamer, one who walks around imagining life as it could be, introverted and introsepctive. There are of course other traits, especially because of Mars, but this Lunar behaviour is obvious.

i want to come back to a quote from yuki.. i agreed with this quote when i read it although i am looking at a venus in sag rising which pulls venus out of its detrimental status found in sidereal.. some of konrads comments i would associate with the sun/saturn conjunction as well.

Yukionna wrote:Also, I don't entirely agree with your description of a typically lunar person. What you write seems to me more in line with a Venus in detriment on the AC. Laziness, sluggishness and all that. To me a Moon is at its worst emotionally unstable, can't settle down, a vagabond, things like that. Prone to mood swings. And Venus' aspect to the AC is as close as the Moon's, so you might just as well say that this is a typically Venusian person. However, the very tight trine with essentially weak Venus does influence the Moon a lot of course, so maybe that would make it more passive as it would otherwise be.
Yuki

the other comment i would like to make is how difficult astrology is given the fact that while we need to isolate parts of the chart, the chart operates as a whole and is always a combination of all the factors.. that is the especially hard part about astrology!!

msg deleted

I have a nativity that I think is an excellent example of overcoming or the dominant planet(s).

I could say a lot at the outset but I thought it would more fun to just display the chart and let you guys delineate away. So its a sort of mini mystery chart. I am displaying the dob/and place of birth so if your really desperate you can google it. However, its not that easy to find that way.

I have displayed the chart in both the tropical and one of the sidereal zodiacs to encourage maximum participation.

Both charts are displayed in whole sign houses. I think the idea of the dominating planet originates from the perspective of whole sign houses. I know this is a controversial topic but as I see it this is a separate issue from determining dexter and sinister aspects. For example we see the 10th place from the lot of fortune as especially powerful and influential. It doesn't require aspectual connections although if present these do strengthen the consideration.

Zodiac: Tropical
House System: Whole Sign

Zodiac: Sidereal (Krishnamurti ayanamsa)
House System: Whole Sign
Mark

I agree with Yukionna and Janis, regarding the prominent Venus on an angle in the Asc, rather than the influence of the Moon.

Hello Konrad,

The first native is the stereotypical lunar person: lazy, unambitious, a dreamer, one who walks around imagining life as it could be, introverted and introsepctive. There are of course other traits, especially because of Mars, but this Lunar behaviour is obvious.

I do not associate these traits with the Moon, rather I would ascribe those traits to the prominent Venus on the Asc. Venus does like ease and sees how the world can be, rather than the harshness that it is. She would rather have a beautiful world, a life of ease, love, happiness, without troubles and worries, and yes a dreamer! That is her natural state, it?s a wonderful thing if only it could be that way! (I also have Venus on Asc in Libra). So I very much feel that way! Very prominent trait with Venus in Asc and 1st hse angle.

Regarding your assessment of yourself as being lazy and unambitious, I?ll bet you are not in those areas you wish to research, learn and investigate. I believe you spend a good deal of energy in learning and investigating methods and theories and in teaching what you have learned to others and very serious about it with your Sun conjunct Saturn. With Asc, Venus, Mercury in Scorpio coupled with the Sun conjunct Saturn in Libra, that is your forte, you love to investigate and delve deeper into what your interests are. That is who you are, the traits you have, with your planetary placements.

You are NOT like the second chart. Anyone with Saturn on the Asc. Is going to be appear to others as being serious about their work and life! Very engaged in climbing the ladder of success, he does work hard because his chart is not going to hand anything to him and he knows it. He does have to work hard to get anywhere. As you know any planet on the Asc, is going to color the person and the life of the person in a very visible and prominent way. This stark difference in the charts you posted is a perfect example of that!

Interestingly, the Moon is exalted lord of the 7th. I have no explosive temper in general life, I can be sharp and to the point and contentious (to be expected with Mars ruling the ASC) but I'm not prone to public fights or rages (I believe Venus on the ASC). However, my relationships are marked by arguments and bickering and I am notoriously short fused with my girlfriends, impatient and very Martian.

Have you given any thought that this behavior is due to Venus in Scorpio? What you describe above is not a Martian trait, as you say above you have not explosive temper in general life, if it were Mars it would show up with everyone, not just your girlfriends. Your description of SHARP and to the point is definitely that sting of Venus being in Scorpio to your GIRLFRIENDS. It is a Venus in Scorpio effect, and very prominently so, in the Asc and 1st hse angle. Your statement of it shows up in RELATIONSHIPS with girlfriends is very obviously to me that is the prominent VENUS, who rules relationships, Venus in Scorpio qualities. I?ll bet you also have love/hate relationships or feel that way sometimes regarding females you love.

That?s my two cents!

It's an interesting chart Mark, because not only does Mars overcome the Sun and planets in the 2d house, but it also pushes its nature onto Venus. (Mars is faster in this case, Venus probably shortly before stationary). So Mars' influence is quite strong, and as it's in detriment. I could imagine that whatever it goes for, it doesn't do so in a nice way.

So really the only other planet that's fairly free to do as it pleases, without anyone telling it how to behave, is Saturn. He's the out-of-sect malefic, essentially weak, and determined towards rather unpleasant things there in the 12th.

Oh dear, I only just now see that it also overcomes a planet, Venus. So we have a Venus that takes on Mars' nature from pushing, and Saturn's nature from overcoming, the poor thing. It signifies the native through triplicity, also home and ancestors, and friends. All of these areas of life should be very problematic. In fact, I can't see any area that's not without problems. The Sun is very dignified, and might therefore be able to realize the affairs of the 2d house. It might do this through whatever the native does professionally or in connection with his reputation, but the means by which this comes to him may not at all be honorable.

Oh well, time for dinner. The brain must be fed. The husband too.

hi marius,

interesting comments. it seems you want to place great emphasis on the particular phase a planet is in, in order to draw a conclusion on whether it is being overcome or not.. you offer the example of michael jacksons chart (not to be confused with konrads chart 2) to articulate in your 2nd paragraph that saturn is dominant and previals over the moon. you then mention in paragraph 4 that you don't think the moon is overcome by saturn due it's phase.. do i read this correctly?

you then cite holdens translation of 'introduction to the tetrabiblios' chapter 20 and 21.. while i don't have holdens translation, i read in mine by andrea l. gehrz this comment that perhaps you or others would like to comment on and which conflicts with your conclusion in paragraph 4 of your commentary. "They say that the superior planet is always stronger, whether it is a benefic, malefic, or placed in an angular house." saturn in chart 2 that konrad provided, and in michael jacksons conforms to these descriptions(excluding the fact saturn is angular in konrads chart 2, but not in the chart i have for mj) so you have me a bit baffled here.

perhaps you'd like to comment more.. thanks for your comments either way..

Marius Cojoc wrote:Greetings to all,

Yukionna, I have this problem to. For me, it's hard to understand the discussion carried so far. Astroart, wrote on this forum, some very good explanations about the issue of overcoming (kathuperteresis).

From my knowledge, in simple terms, in Michael Jackson chart, Kronos is dominant and prevails over Selene. Kronos makes a left-hand (sinister) aspect to Selene and Selene makes a right-hand (dexter) aspect to Kronos (applying, 3 portion orb). ?And in general every star that is on the right prevails over one that is on the left that is carried to it? is stated by Porphyry, James Holden translation.

For me, the quote ?And in general?, means that it's not always like that. Porphyry dedicate two distinct chapters for this issue: ?20.Predominating? and ?21.Prevailing?. Why is that ? Anyway, I don't have the time to point out other details of the issue, but I think, the thread ?Overcoming?, deserve much more attention.

Kronos was turning direct in motion two, or three days before MJ was born and is in the second stage of synodical cycle. Selene will be carried by daily motion to Kronos, but I think there is no overcoming, because the faster moving planet, Selene, is not positioned on the second stage of synodical cycle of the reference point, Kronos. Overcoming means coming down from above and I think, you can't meet this dynamic on this specific configuration. Anyway, I'm pretty messed up with my vison in space and time. I need real hard exercise. Maybe, someone can help me out!

On act astrology there is a chart of Mohandas Ghandi, where Robert Schmidt made a statement about the configuration of overcoming.

hi morning sun - i like your comments!

hi mark!

thanks for presenting the forum/thread with a mystery challenge!!!

i have a feeling the chart is someone famous, not just cause of the pof in the ascendant, but the new moon conjunct the jupiter/pluto conjunction which suggests something on a large scale modified somewhat by mars in taurus overcoming the same cluster and in 11th from pof.. i immediately wondered if this was the french serial killer's chart!!

the saturn venus square looks very difficult with saturn in the 12th by my house approach and the square itself latched onto the midheaven axis.. perhaps this person has been able to channel the pain and suffering that is suggested by this placement and position into some creative outlet as a form of self redemption. perhaps they are involved in some artistic pursuit, possibly writing or theatre which is backed up by the leo focus as well..

generally i see the saturn having a dominant impact on venus here and i have difficulty being able to tell whether it is for good or bad.. regardless of the direction, i believe the chart is of someone better known for the reasons i mentioned earlier.. one last comment - saturn has undue influence on the chart as i see it, as i also note the close 45 degree aspect between saturn and the new moon conjunction.. as a matter of fact, using the 45, the moon applies to saturn, while the sun has just pasted exactitude to saturn via the 45, so we have sun/moon =saturn very close using the 45 here... the 45 is not traditional astrology, unless kepler was a genius, lol.. this emphasis on saturn in such a challenging way tends for me to guess the outcome of the chart is 'unfavourable' and that is trad astro as i understand it!!

Thanks very much for your comments Yukionna and James. I will respond in due course.

In the meantime any there any other comments?

Obviously, the planetary configurations are the same but I would be very interested to see some feedback from one of our sidereal members here such as Konrad and/or Graham.

Mark

First, I'd like to thank Yukionna for bringing up the topic of Overcoming. It is a concept I have not put to use, namely as there always seem to be other factors involved that are more pronounced, as in Konrad's chart.

However, I would also like to thank Mark for posting the recent chart as an example of overcoming. I finally see very clearly where that concept is extremely useful as in Marks mystery chart.

The stellium of planets in the 2nd are all combust, a very strong sun in its own domicile, absorbs all the other planets energies and focus to become larger than life, using all the energies for one purpose: for itsel, for its own glory and selfish means. This person must have one HUGE EGO!!! Very dominating and domineering I assume and very nastily so, being overcome by a dominant, Mars in detriment. Tyrannical I would guess.

So with the concept of overcoming you have the two malefics, in very bad shape, ruling this chart, this persons life.

Mars in detriment overcoming the stellium of planets, imparting his malefic qualities to an already dominating Sun, which has already absorbed all the other planets unto itself, among them Jupiter and Pluto conjunction, only magnifying the already huge ego and self centeredness of this Sun. Moon is a also taken up by the Sun. It is all about the Sun, his own desires, his wants his ego, what he wants and it can't be good being overcome by Mars in detriment.

If that wasn't enough Saturn in the 12th squaring Venus in her fall in Virgo in the 3rd, the last hope of any goodness. I would say there are some dark secrets between Saturn in the 12th overcoming Venus in her fall, possibly with his younger sibling or siblings, being Venus in the 3rd house and Saturn in Gemini, there would be a connection to younger siblings of a dark nature. Or something happened to this person when they were young of a dark nature.

A very good example for me to start using the concept of overcoming, a nother tool and layer to look at! Thank you for bringing this chart to the forum.

It indeed is a challenging overcoming. I am used to the tropical one, so I would draw inspiration from the first chart.

It is obvious that Mars is dominating the chart and overcomes almost all the planets, including the luminaries. There are no planets who might offer protection from Mars' overcoming - Venus, who disposes Mars, is in her fall, in a cadent place, and in aversion to the place exposed to the overcoming. In fact, Venus, the lady of Mars, being in her fall must make the overcoming even worse. Saturn, the old devil, in the 12th, ruling the 7th and the 8th is not a help here, probably it pours some extra nasty ingredients in the stew.

Considering that Mars, the ruler of MC, is overcoming the Sun, the natural ruler of fame, being exalted in the 10th WSH and Jupiter, the ruler of the 10th, I think that the guy must be notorious for martial things, determined by the sign, house Mars is in and the house and sign which he aspects best. Taurus is a raunchy sign, so is Leo. From his domiciles he aspects only Scorpio, the fifth sign, so the axis 5th - 11th is of importance here.

I guess the guy must be notorious for martial things related to children; debauchery with young women might be an option, but the first one looks like more plausible. May be he was a sexual maniac, serial killer or of the same sort.

As there are no protection (restriction) from benefics, Mars is allowed to wreak his malice with full force. According to my understading, here he works both as the instigator of action (as determined accidentally) and as the executor. The end must be a martial one. I am not speaking of his own end, which seems to be of Saturn's nature and determination (airy sign, 12th sign, probably hanging in prison).

The closest Mars overcoming aspect (partile) is to the North Node, born to be a killer.