James, yes, I will come across as fixed on astrological forums. My Mercury is in Scorpio in mutual reception with Mars. And I do have fixed astrological opinions after more than 40 years working with astrology. But in living situations I'm flexible and frequently change my mind. If you are a "James" from ADB, then I remember you and somewhere I have your birth chart! I don't remember details, but I have vague memories of conversations.

Therese

Therese Hamilton wrote:There may be something to planets being above or below the horizon in relation to being objective or subjective, however. That is a tropical idea.
Therese

i am curious to know why you think this has to be described as a 'tropical' idea? there is no mention of any zodiac.. i've heard this idea expressed many times before and tend to agree with it.

James wrote:

am curious to know why you think this has to be described as a 'tropical' idea? there is no mention of any zodiac.. i've heard this idea expressed many times before and tend to agree with it.

I mean this idea developed among tropical astrologers sometime since the time of Leo and Carter.

Nice to be in touch again, James!

Therese

Therese Hamilton wrote:James, yes, I will come across as fixed on astrological forums. My Mercury is in Scorpio in mutual reception with Mars. And I do have fixed astrological opinions after more than 40 years working with astrology. But in living situations I'm flexible and frequently change my mind. If you are a "James" from ADB, then I remember you and somewhere I have your birth chart! I don't remember details, but I have vague memories of conversations.

Therese

Sidereal of course ?
Would that be Mercury in Tropical sagittarius and Mars in Libra or cancer ?

PD

pankajdubey wrote:

Therese Hamilton wrote:James, yes, I will come across as fixed on astrological forums. My Mercury is in Scorpio in mutual reception with Mars. And I do have fixed astrological opinions after more than 40 years working with astrology.Therese

Sidereal of course ?
Would that be Mercury in Tropical sagittarius and Mars in Libra or cancer ?

PD

Yes, those are sidereal positions. In the tropical zodiac Mercury is about 27 Scorpio, but Mars is in Libra, so no mutual reception there, and no aspect between Mercury and Mars.

My tendency to change shows in the many astrological systems I've transited through over the years: Tropical first, followed by the Fagan western system, then to India's various systems, then to Hellenistic, and now I'm studying Ben Dykes Medieval translations, but keeping it all in the sidereal.

When I read charts, I tend to take concepts from different systems, but now always in the sidereal zodiac. When I see sidereal Aries, for example, I'll still automatically think "tropical Taurus traits." I'll use India's Vimshottari dasa system, but western orbs and transits. I don't use India's whole sign houses or aspects from sign to sign. And so forth. Over the years I've found that each system has something superior to offer, so I put it all together now in my elder years.

James, you asked about Robert Schmidt's three primary considerations in reading a chart. Here is his note from the ACT forum:

-----------Begin quote-------------

In several Hellenistic texts, three planets are singled out for special importance in a delineation of the chart.

These are the domicile lord of the Ascendant
The domicile lord of the Lot of Fortune
And the trigon lord(s) of the sect light.

These three planets are so important that they are often collectively called "the planets having a relation to the nativity." this implies that the trigon lord of the sect light (and possibly of other planets) represents a mode of rulership for planets analogous to that of the planetary rulership of a topical place (house).

--------------End Quote-------------

We also know from Robert Schmidt that the planet exalted in a sign was often considered to be a co-ruler of the sign. Certainly the characteristics of an exalted planet show up in the (sidereal) sign itself as do traits of the trigon lords. From that quote it looks like I should have been using only one trigon lord for the temperament charts instead of two, depending on whether the chart is nocturnal or diurnal.

therese,
thanks for sharing where the idea of above and below horizon and objective/subjective orientation comes from..

when an idea comes from a particular astrologer or time frame do you give it some consideration, or do you discard it? i like to think of it's relevance regardless of who or when the idea came about.. i figure these ideas have a basis in observation, as opposed to imagination, although imagination is an important part of our mind that has been responsible for all sorts of wonderful discoveries.

as for the 3 considerations ala schmidt. - thanks! it would seem it is trigon lords, not trigon lord.. also interesting to me is how the ruler of the part of fortune has gone by the wayside and not being used for temperament analysis by anyone in the list on greenbaums book..well schoener mentions it, but not the ruler but the almuten instead..

i think if i was to point to one area of fascination for the traditional astrologer crowd it would be 'temperament'.. it seems to me since 'modern' astrology has been defined as too psychological for the traditional folks they need to sublimate their ongoing interest in psychology by studying temperament.. i think that is what these astrologers were doing.. they just didn't have carl jungs ideas to kick around like liz greene and etc.. greenbaum does discuss carl jung as well!
what do you think?

Therese Hamilton wrote: -----------Begin quote-------------

the trigon lord(s) of the sect light.


--------------End Quote-------------

James wrote:

therese,
when an idea comes from a particular astrologer or time frame do you give it some consideration, or do you discard it?

I consider the idea over the source. Astrology is so vast that it seems little tidbits or larger ideas come from all sides. I place the most emphasis on observation.

i think if i was to point to one area of fascination for the traditional astrologer crowd it would be 'temperament'.. it seems to me since 'modern' astrology has been defined as too psychological for the traditional folks they need to sublimate their ongoing interest in psychology by studying temperament.. i think that is what these astrologers were doing.. they just didn't have carl jungs ideas to kick around like liz greene and etc.. greenbaum does discuss carl jung as well!
what do you think?

I'm not sure what your question is here. I do think there is a lot of overlap between what is called personality and temperament. So considering these together or comparing them is rather complex. It's a whole new discussion that would require a lot of basic research. Although astrologers use psychology every day, very few of them are professionally trained to fully understand what the are saying. Perhaps the same can be said for temperament.

Therese

SANGUINE CHARTS

There are only two children in Greenbaum?s book who are classed as sanguine without modification from other temperaments, Stacy and Darcy. Greenbaum has used Tony Blair as a third sanguine person, so we can look at these three charts.

The Sanguine temperament (Greenbaum)
Friendly, social, shallow, unfocused, cheerful, dilettante, lucky
Hail fellow well met
Networking is an art form.

If the sanguine temperament is linked to a trigon, it would have to be the Taurus triplicity which has the traits of the tropical Gemini trigon. The sidereal Taurus triplicity lords are the Moon and Venus, and traits of these planets are a good match for this triplicity. These sidereal signs, Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn, are also signs of communication, for Virgo (Mercury's domicile as well as exaltation sign), is the second sign of this triplicity. "For in Virgo is also a share for Mercury." (Dorotheus)

To review Moon and Venus traits from Introductions to Traditional Astrology:

Characteristics of the Moon
benevolent
moderate
not concealing secrets (talkative?)
desires joy and beauty and being praised
inexperience of the mind (Dykes? note: ?gossip, chit-chat?)
cheerful to people
with Venus: courtliness, sweetness of mind
with Jupiter: kindness of companionship

Characteristics of Venus
generous, sharing
amiability toward friends
joy and happiness
love of children, love of people
trust in everyone
sweetness of speech
sweetness and laughter and friendship

Stacy
March 3, 1987
8:18 am EST (-5)
New Haven, CT
Asc:5Ari58 (Krishnamurti)
Sidereal MC: 10Cap33
Ignore the MC in the printed chart

Darcy
March 1, 1983
4:59:30 am EST (-5)
New Haven, Ct
Asc: 12Cap16 (Krishnamurti)
Sidereal MC: 7Lib19
Ignore the MC in the printed chart

Stacy
Greenbaum describes Stacy as sociable, graceful, flitting from interest to interest, and comments that ?It would be nice to see more significations in air.? As ?air? correlates with the sidereal Taurus triplicity and its lords, Stacy's chart has Venus at the zenith point (nonagesimal) squaring the ascendant within a degree.

The Moon is also on the ascendant in Aries. The Moon has no dignity in Aries, but is exalted in Taurus in the navamsa. Of course this is a technique borrowed from India, although the so-called "9ths" appear in early western texts. But there is no hint as to how to use the 9ths.

Stacy's chart shows us the importance of the ascendant angles, for the Venus-Moon configuration dominates the chart angles. Sun and Mercury are in melancholic Aquarius in the 11th sign. Though a diurnal chart, the Sun is obviously eclipsed by the angular Venus and Moon.

(1) Domicile lord of the ascendant
With Aries rising, Stacy's Mars is in the first house widely conjunct the Ascendant and Moon. Both Moon and the Ascendant are in the bounds of cheerful Jupiter. Mars receives the 2 degree sextile from Mercury in the bounds of Venus. The Aquarian Sun forms a wider sextile, and happens to be in the bounds of Jupiter. (It would seem that the bounds would make a useful addition to the study of temperament.)

(2) Domicile lord of the Lot of Fortune
Fortuna lies in Taurus, so the elevated sanguine Venus is the domicile lord.

(3) Trigon lords of the sect light
Here we don't have trigon support for a sanguine chart as Saturn in Scorpio is the day lord of the Sun, and Mercury in Aquarius is the night lord. It may be important that both Saturn and Mercury are well placed by house (9th and 11th). (This is taking the equal cusps as the centers of house influence.) Saturn does not aspect the ascendant or Moon, however.

Darcy
The sanguine chart that has the most discussion of traits in Greenbaum's book is that of, her own daughter, Darcy. Greenbaum states that she has admired her daughter?s social skills and ability to make friends since she was the age of three. Greenbaum describes Darcy?s life filled with activity including ballet, various sports, learning French and music.

?Too much on her plate,? Greenbaum says, ?who enjoys every minute of it.? Greenbaum adds that it?s easy to see Darcy?s sanguine temperament as both the ascendant and Moon are in [tropical] Air.

(1) Trigon lords of the sect light:
In the sidereal zodiac we are not surprised then to see that the Moon in Virgo in its own triplicity trines the ascendant from the 9th house with a two degree orb. In the terms of Venus, the Moon is made stronger by Darcy being a night time birth. In the navamsa the Moon gains even more strength as it is dignified in Taurus. Venus, the secondary trigon lord is exalted in Pisces.

(2) Domicile lord of the Lot of Fortune:
Fortuna is in Gemini, so the domicile lord is Mercury in Capricorn, sign of the Taurus trigon.

(3) Domicile lord of the ascendant is Saturn in Libra. On the surface this looks a lot like a melancholic signature, but there are some important differences from Saturn in the melancholic charts. Saturn is exalted in Darcy's chart rather than being in an inimical sign of Mars (Aries or Scorpio). Darcy's Saturn does not aspect either the Sun or Moon, but it does closely aspect the ascendant. Is it important that Saturn is in the bounds of Mercury which is in Capricorn?

Another plus is that Saturn?s dispositor is an exalted Venus in Pisces in partile opposition to the 9th house Moon with only a four minute orb. So there is a similar Venus-Moon emphasis that is present in Stacy?s chart. It would seem that the Moon making such a close aspect to the ascendant ?collects? the energy of exalted Venus.

Five degrees away and conjoined to Venus is Mars in Pisces in its own trigon. No doubt this is the signature for Darcy?s love of the ceaseless activities she enjoys with others, which includes the sports of swimming, softball, and horseback riding. With Mars as the primary triplicity lord, the sidereal Cancer trigon carries choleric energy.

thanks for answering my questions therese. those were good answers! i am making a bit of a statement in the 2nd part more then i am needing to get a specific answer.

here are stacey and darcys charts.

it is interesting to see more of a focal point in the 4th quadrant of staceys chart which is described as the 'sanguine' quadrant. in the case of darcys chart i note the sun square jupiter which i would associate with a more sanguine nature.. however it is the moon that is the sect luminary and it is opposite venus/mars conjunction in pisces which i am not sure how to translate in terms of temperament. mostly i think of moon opp venus as more social which is how i think of the 'wetness' as opposed to dryness quality of planets/signs and etc..


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the way i understand using the trigon lords doing hellenistic is first looking at the trigon lords off the luminary of sect. in staceys chart this would be sun in aquarius which has as trigon lords saturn and mercury with jupiter also participating - dorotheus triplicity system.

with darcy the moon in virgo has as trigon lords the moon, venus and mars participating..

in staceys chart the moon is very strong on the ascendant degree.. if we use the trigon lords of the ascendant which are the same as the moon we get the sun, jupiter and saturn participating.. either way the 4th quadrant is quite strong suggesting the sanguine temperament on the basis of this alone.

Sanguine Chart #3: Tony Blair
May 6, 1953
6:10 am BST (-1)
Edinburgh, Scotland
Ascendant: 11Tau43 (Krishnamurti)
Rodden Rating: AA (BC)

Tony Blair is the third sanguine chart, which Greenbaum used as an example chart in her book. Blair was considered a popular, energetic and persuasive leader who won a third term election.

His chart is dominated by planets in the Taurus trigon if we consider the ascendant the main focus point, Jupiter and Mars are just above the Taurus ascendant, and the Moon trines the ascendant from Capricorn. For a person in a high political position, the Sun is exalted in Aries, but in the 12th house. This Sun is eclipsed by the Taurus planets on the ascendant. However, the Moon in sanguine Capricorn closely squares the Sun.

(1) Domicile lord of the Ascendant:
The domicile lord of the ascendant is Venus exalted in Pisces in the 11th house. This is a benefic house, but Venus in Pisces is choleric, very active. It may be cooled somewhat by the opposition from Saturn in sanguine Virgo.

(2) Domicile lord of the Lot of Fortune
Saturn in sanguine Virgo is the domicile lord of Fortuna.

(3) Trigon lords of the sect light
This is a diurnal chart with the Sun in Aries, so the Sun is the primary trigon lord. We can suppose it's significant that the sanguine Moon in Capricorn makes the only close aspect to the Sun. Secondary lord Jupiter is above the ascendant in sanguine Taurus in the bounds of Venus.

The Moon itself is in its own trigon in Capricorn (Its dispositor Saturn being one of the planets aspecting the exalted Venus.) The Moon also happens to be in the terms of Venus, and aspects Venus by a three degree sextile. Venus itself crosses from the navamsa chart to the natal ascendant--in sanguine Capricorn (tropical Aquarius).

In these three Sanguine charts--Stacy, Darcy and Tony Blair, there's an unmistakable emphasis on the Moon and Venus and the Taurus triplicity. The symbolism holds together when combining the Moon, Venus, Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn. Tropical astrology is correct in noting the sanguine nature of these sign areas, but in the tropical zodiac these three areas are labeled Air signs whose triplicity lords are Saturn and Mercury.