Does anyone happen to know the years of birth (and, for the first two names, of death) of the following astrologers?

- R. Gopalakrishna Row and N. V. Raghavachary (friends of K. S. Krishnamurti, both published under the pseudonym 'Meena')
- K. Subramaniam and K. Hariharan, sons of K. S. Krishnamurti
- Hart deFouw
- Andrew Foss

Edit: And is deFouw Canadian by birth?

Martin Gansten wrote:Thank you for these additional comments, Therese. I'm glad I posted my question here; the article will definitely be the better for it.

I am happy I could be of help, Martin. Perhaps it was destiny that the early American Council symposiums were held in San Rafael, California (San Francisco Bay Area), a stone's throw from my doorstep. I spent a fair amount of time observing the interpersonal dynamics among members of the core group.

I remember that K.N. Rao would hold court late into the evening sustained by black coffee and chocolate, quite a treat for his adoring American students! Someone had snapped a photo of my husband and myself with B.V. Raman looking at some new software, Raman holding a copy of the newsletter I published at the time. Raman was always humble and gracious in his demeanor. A prized photo to this day!

Remaining with the subject of early British references to Indian astrology I see that Alan Leo's Dictionary of Astrology (1929) has an extensive section on 'Hindu astrology'.

Of course Leo himself died in 1917. The book was actually put together by Vivian Robson using notes left behind by Leo. Robson had been working on his own dictionary of astrology but Bessie Leo persuaded him to drop that project and instead edit a book using Leo's notes. However, I expect that a lot of Robson's insights went into the work too.

Being very scrupulous Robson makes a note as editor in the book that Leo had taken the whole section on 'Hindu Astrology' from an article by Sepharial that had previously appeared in Leo's publication Modern Astrology.

Mark

Hi Martin,

I have tried to find biographical data on Hart de Fouw but I cant track down anything detailed. Even in interviews he gives away next to no biographical information on his early life. We actually learn more detail on his past lives than his current one!

http://www.hartdefouw.com/id15.html

He doesn't appear to want his actual chart data made publicly available but then that is not unique amongst professionals.

Judging from his website he seems to live in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Moreover, he appears to have studied in Canada during the 1970's

http://www.hartdefouw.com/id16.html

The give away is that he and his co-author of Light on Life Robert E. Svoboda are jointly always described as 'North American'. Since Robert E. Svoboda is a US national its a clear steer de Fouw originates from Canada.

Does anyone know more about De Fouw's guru K.L. Mantri?

Mark

Mark wrote:I have tried to find biographical data on Hart de Fouw but I cant track down anything detailed. Even in interviews he gives away next to no biographical information on his early life.

That's what I found (or didn't find) as well. I just thought someone on the forum might be personally acquainted with him (I'm not after his complete birth data, just a year to put in the encyclopaedia entry). But many thanks for scouring the web just to help me!

We actually learn more detail on his past lives than his current one!

The give away is that he and his co-author of Light on Life Robert E. Svoboda are jointly always described as 'North American'. Since Robert E. Svoboda is a US national its a clear steer de Fouw originates from Canada.

That's what I thought as well.

Varuna2 wrote:

I have not been involved in the astrology community, and so I do not know who won what awards or who was considered the most influential, but I have read a number of texts by various Western Jyotishi's mentioned in this thread and for the most part the texts coming out of the Western Jyotish community are sort of like Linda Goodman (Western contemporary Jyotish authors) vs Ptolemy or Valens (classical Jyotisha texts)...It seems like almost everyone writes a kindergarten astrology book or two, as an introduction to Jyotish, and that is as far as it goes...

I understand what you are saying here, Varuna. We already had James Braha's Ancient Hindu Astrology for the Modern Western Astrologer (1986), a good introduction for tropical astrologers. Then later Hart deFouw and Robert Svoboda published their substantial Light on Life (1996). For a scholarly approach by a Sanskrit scholar we had Valerie Roebuck's Circle of Stars (1992). This quite excellent and classically accurate book was published in Britain, but I believe most astrologers in America were not aware that the book existed.

I admit to being puzzled and surprised when later (and lesser) introductory texts appeared from the 1990s on. It did seem as if every astrologer of note felt it necessary to write and publish his or her own introductory text. And as each text appeared, more and more western concepts made their way into what had become known as "Vedic" astrology. How I wish that somehow "Vedic" could be dropped, and be replaced by a more suitable term. "Vedic" is so totally wrong and inappropriate for today's hybrid eastern-western astrology.

What is the title of Behari's third book that you mentioned? I do have several of his books. Passage Press sent me his books at no cost for review in my newsletter. That is how I happened to have his books in my library. I also received David Frawley's books for review.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

How I wish that somehow "Vedic" could be dropped, and be replaced by a more suitable term. "Vedic" is so totally wrong and inappropriate for today's hybrid eastern-western astrology.

Yes. Moreover, the term is surely an historical misnomer for the horoscopic astrology actually practised in India itself too.

Mark

Mark wrote:Therese Hamilton wrote:

How I wish that somehow "Vedic" could be dropped, and be replaced by a more suitable term. "Vedic" is so totally wrong and inappropriate for today's hybrid eastern-western astrology.

Yes. Moreover, the term is surely an historical misnomer for the horoscopic astrology actually practised in India itself too.

I am wondering if we can thank David Frawley for applying "Vedic" to India's astrology. Three books were published in 1990, two years before the first American Vedic Council symposium. David Frawley was a sponsor of that symposium along with Dennis Harness and Stephen Quong.

Ronnie Gale Dreyer's Indian Astrology: A Western approach to the ancient Hindu art, The Aquarian Press, Great Britain (No Vedic there.)

David Frawley's The Astrology of Seers: A comprehensive guide to Vedic astrology , Passage Press, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA (The corruption begins?)

Bepin Behari's Myths and Symbols of Vedic Astrology (Edited by David Frawley!!) Passage Press, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

Right at the top of the 1992 First Symposium program booklet it states:

"Vedic Astrology is the original system of astrology founded by the sages of India over 5000 years ago..."

There you have it. The Greek-Arabic contribution to India'a astrology has been ignored in favor of a contemporary belief system.

Therese Hamilton wrote:I am wondering if we can thank David Frawley for applying "Vedic" to India's astrology.

I know that ISKCON's Shyamasundara Dasa claims 'credit' for coining the phrase in the 1980s, but as I recall, the claim is not uncontested. I'm not absolutely sure who the other contender was, but it may have been Chakrapani Ullal. In any case, the misuse of the term Vedic is rampant in certain western subcultures; it is applied to everything from Indian mathematics to Mughal cuisine. The actual traditional use of the term (vaidika in Sanskrit) is quite close to western academic usage.

when i was first exposed to astrology from india it was called 'indian' astrology.. that was the term used in the 70's or 80's.. then somewhere along the line it became 'vedic'.. not sure who was responsible for that, but i would be curious..

Mark wrote:Varuna 2 wrote:

I have not been involved in the astrology community, and so I do not know who won what awards or who was considered the most influential, but I have read a number of texts by various Western Jyotishi's mentioned in this thread and for the most part the texts coming out of the Western Jyotish community are sort of like Linda Goodman (Western contemporary Jyotish authors) vs Ptolemy or Valens (classical Jyotisha texts). I regret to say this, but after being introduced to jyotish through Behari, I went to the classical texts and later on when I read the texts from Westerners it was like going back to kindergarten, over and over again, either that or they wrote stories about their spiritual journey in a book about astrology - but in both cases one would want to stick to the ancient and classical texts if one was interested in learning Jyotisha to an optimal level, and not that I have a problem with stories about spiritual paths. It seems like almost everyone writes a kindergarten astrology book or two, as an introduction to Jyotish, and that is as far as it goes. I do not know what their classes are like because I only studied through texts and on my own.

I have no objection to your sentiment i.e. traditional texts over popularised introductions. Its certainly where we should probably be going after reading some more basic introductions. Still, I think you are exceptionally harsh in lumping all the western Vedic community together like this. Bear in mind too that you are describing introductions to the topic for a western readership that are completely new to the topic. The situation is quite different in India.

Moreover, we all need to start somewhere. As we are on the topic I started my own astrology interest with Linda Goodman's books myself. I may have left that approach a long way behind but it sparked an initial interest. There is a place for popular astrology too in our astrological community.

I dont dispute a lot of over-simplification of Jyotish techniques may have been promoted by several of these North American authors in their books. How authentic their approach are is something one could surely only judge by studying in depth with them. Still, you almost seem to be suggesting that there are no decent practitioners of Jyotish in the west at all.

In any case, Martin has made it clear his article is not focusing on the quality of the astrology being offered but rather what has been most influential in the west.

Mark

Mark,

I have wanted to say that for a long time, and I tried to warn Melissa about it subtly, but I did not know how to say it without being hurtful and so I kept it to myself until now. I can have an exceptionally harsh speech, but I did not mean any harm to those people personally nor to that community. Let me try to say it better. I enjoyed reading western jyotishis stories about their spiritual paths and I learned some things from them and it was good to review basics from more than one person's perspective, however, if one was interested in learning Jyotisha in more depth, then the classical texts and certain Indian authors are where that is possible, and I say this without having read every single book printed by the western jyotishis.

The reason I brought it up on this thread is because if an article was made only mentioning western jyotishis names, it would be a real shame, since the audience would not learn as much as is possible, by reading western jyotishi's works, from my limited knowledge of this matter.

I inferred that Bowser had to deal with jyotishis telling him that the Lahiri ayanamsha is the true one because it is associated with more spiritual matters and therefore the Lahiri ayanamsha is The spiritual and true zodiac. I do not know anyone in the Jyotisha community or the dynamics of those communities, but if this is what is being said, then those people deserve harsh reprimands and more education, in my opinion.



p.s. Although I offered one explanation and wrote about western jyotishis, I was not making a judgment about them nor was I implying that I know more than the entire western jyotish community, rather, I was making a judgment on the literature specifically and with a 'generally speaking' clause, after having read various classical texts and not from the perspective of someone completely new to jyotish.

Therese Hamilton wrote:Varuna2 wrote:

I have not been involved in the astrology community, and so I do not know who won what awards or who was considered the most influential, but I have read a number of texts by various Western Jyotishi's mentioned in this thread and for the most part the texts coming out of the Western Jyotish community are sort of like Linda Goodman (Western contemporary Jyotish authors) vs Ptolemy or Valens (classical Jyotisha texts)...It seems like almost everyone writes a kindergarten astrology book or two, as an introduction to Jyotish, and that is as far as it goes...

I understand what you are saying here, Varuna. We already had James Braha's Ancient Hindu Astrology for the Modern Western Astrologer (1986), a good introduction for tropical astrologers. Then later Hart deFouw and Robert Svoboda published their substantial Light on Life (1996). For a scholarly approach by a Sanskrit scholar we had Valerie Roebuck's Circle of Stars (1992). This quite excellent and classically accurate book was published in Britain, but I believe most astrologers in America were not aware that the book existed.

I admit to being puzzled and surprised when later (and lesser) introductory texts appeared from the 1990s on. It did seem as if every astrologer of note felt it necessary to write and publish his or her own introductory text. And as each text appeared, more and more western concepts made their way into what had become known as "Vedic" astrology. How I wish that somehow "Vedic" could be dropped, and be replaced by a more suitable term. "Vedic" is so totally wrong and inappropriate for today's hybrid eastern-western astrology.

What is the title of Behari's third book that you mentioned? I do have several of his books. Passage Press sent me his books at no cost for review in my newsletter. That is how I happened to have his books in my library. I also received David Frawley's books for review.

Therese,

I am not suggesting you read it, only that it presents techniques that are authentic Jyotisha techniques, including Tajika, and so it is not like Behari did not transmit authentic Jyotisha in his work, which is the impression I got when I read your opinion of Behari. The text is titled: The Timing of Events. He also cites Sanskrit works that present information that is nowadays regarded as New Age or Theosophical rubbish, but there is actually a basis for some of those ideas in the ancient texts.

p.s. Frawley seemed to have oversimplified things and maybe should not have used the term 'vedic', but to his credit his dating of Indian civilization is actually based on speculation regarding actual astronomy facts, and not speculation based on prejudice and ignorance.

I read several books and articles written by 19th century Orientalists, and the prejudice towards Indians is rampant. I also read who and how the dating of Indian history was invented by these Orientalists. They arbitrarily decided that each stage of literature took about 500 years, and one of them disagreed and thought each stage of Hindu philosophy/scriptures took a little bit longer. So they "established" the age of the rg veda, the first text according to them, at 1200-1900 bce. This "historical fact" is still taught today and has no basis for it.

Also, the Fagan octoscope is based on the Varuna octoscope as far as I can tell, so I do not blame Indians nor Frawley for their ignoring the Western stories of history including the history of astrology, since this is what happened to the Indians, when the original Orientalists invented Indian history for them and said India owes everything to the so-called "cradle of civilization" of Mesopotamia and the Hellenists.

Many Indians reject the speculations of Western versions of their history including astrology, and I do not blame them after what has happened to them. They also received cultural genocide and ethnic genocide in the exact same manner as the European peoples.