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25 by Tom
I read every entry in the Index of Broughton's elements of astrology and nowhere does he use a single national chart. It's possible I missed it, and it is possible he spent more time on mundane astrology in his other writings, but didn't see it.

What I did see is that he makes the statement that every nation is ruled by a sign and the sign that rules the USA is Gemini. He does NOT say that Gemini is rising at the time of the birth of the USA. He does note, and this pertains to something I wrote on another thread, that Uranus in Gemini is significant in American history dating back to colonial times. Evangeline Adams, never one to give credit to anyone when it could be avoided, made her prediction of the US being involved in what would become WWII based on Uranus' entry into Gemini and she based that on the fact that the American Revolution and the American Civil War (sometimes called The Second American Revolution) occurred about 84 years apart both during Uranus in Gemini periods. Other incidents like the infamous Salem Witch Trials occurred with Uranus in Gemini as well.

In Elements he mentions the Lincoln assassination and looks at the chart for the time of the shooting, but does not relate it to any other charts. We may have to defer to Mr. Graves on this one.

26 by Mark
Tom wrote:
However you don't get off the hook so easily. You cite Hazelrigg. He was one of Broughton's students and Broughton, although living in Philadelphia and New York, was born in England.
Strange. Americans usually seem happy to accept Broughton as the Father of American astrology!

http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologer ... ghton.html

He may have been born in England but he left England at 26 and stayed in the US until his death at 71 in 1899.

I guess his possible linkage to national charts associates him with perfidious modernity! This makes me recall, that up until a few years ago Scots used to complain that a Scottish athlete doing well was often described by the BBC as 'British' while if they performed poorly they were always described as 'Scottish'!

I am not clear exactly what Luke Broughton specifically taught regarding mundane astrology or what his 1861 prediction of war was derived from beyond Uranus returning to Gemini as in 1776. In the thread Philip was obviously looking at all these astrologers in a much broader sense beyond just mundane astrology. It would still be useful to have Philip's input on this.

Still whatever Broughton did it seems evident at least three US astrologers -Ernest Green, John Hazelrigg and Evangeline Adams were all using a 'national chart' for the US long before Carter proposed the idea.

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

27 by james_m
Tom wrote:
MC Square Mars on 11 September
Sun opposite Saturn, about the 3rd of September.
Moon opposite Saturn around the 8th of September
using the lunation chart with converse transit data i can get sun square saturn sept 4th, moon opposite saturn sept 6th.

mars is retro in the lunation chart and moves closer to the saturn square coming exact by converse transit on sept 12/13th area. i am not sure how to move the midheaven to a square of mars in the lunation chart as they are in a very close and exact square to begin with.

28 by Deb
Since this is a new Moon, the Sun and Moon are in the same place in celestial longitude therefore, since the distance from the opposition point of Saturn is 70 degrees for the Sun it is 70 degrees for the Moon, yet Hieroz says the Moon is directed to that point 5 days later.


Tom, I noticed this whilst noticing that the Sun and Moon are 5 degrees apart in both ingress charts - 5 degrees past conj in the Aries ingress; 5 degrees past sextile in Cancer ingress.
I find the comments on the national chart very interesting, but wonder if they should be broken into a new thread?

29 by Tom
Re: The national chart. I was only teasing because Mark said we should "blame" the Americans. I didn't take offense. I just decided to blame the British in return. I was joking about it - that's all. The other remarks about Uranus were more serious. If we can drag Phillip into this then we should move to another thread. I only have one other minor observation on this.

Broughton is the father of American Astrology and he taught Hazelrigg and others including Catherine Thompson who for a while taught Evangeline Adams although Adams never admitted it in publications. Adams claimed her education came from a Dr. Herber Smith who was an older contemporary of Luke Broughton. I've always wondered from whom Smith learned astrology as it is highly unlikely he had heard of Broughton at the time he was teaching Adams. Broughton was not well known anywhere in the US at that time except maybe Philadelphia. Adams and Smith lived in Massachusetts.

Hieroz Prediction of WW11

30 by Simon Howe
Dear Tom,

Congratulations on such a well thought out explanation.

I note that the Invasion Chart of the morning of 1st of September connects the two ingress charts thus: the Moon conjuncts the Sun of the Equinox Chart and the Sun conjuncts the Moon of the Solstice chart. Do you think this is significant or is it just coincidence?

31 by Tom
Simon. Thanks for the Kind words.

I haven't' seen any work done linking one chart to two in the manner you described, but it is the kind of thinking we're looking for. That might establish an initial link that would cause the astrologer to look further though.

34 by james_m
is there a specific time and place used for the invasion? if so, i would like to know this to take a look. i can post a chart too, although i am leaving to vancouver in the next hour and won't do it right away. thanks.

36 by Michaelb
Hi
Today writing this is Christmas Day so Merry Christmas to All and a Happy New Year to.
Examples are from Tom's Post dated/posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:09 pm where he presents Cancer Ingress chart and August 15, 1939 Lunation. He also wrote at bottom of post following: However Hieroz, using primary directions manages to tweak out a date of Sept 3. I?m going to pass on all that. I?ll post a short summary later. END QUOTE.

Other text in the Hieroz papers may lead us to believe Hieroz is directing planets in the Lunation chart. I think that is incorrect. To direct a Lunation we have a couple of choices such as, if memory is correct, the Synodic Month is time from one New or Full Moon to next, also NM to NM or FM to FM.

Synodic comes to about 29days12Hours44Minutes3Seconds or decimal 29.53059 something like that. Then divide 360 (degrees) by 29.53059 gives 12.190748.

The other calculation is the Tropical Moon comes to about 27.32158. Then divide 360 by that number gives 13.176397. Then multiply number of days times either value to find arc of direction. I will skip that. Now what? A few months ago I explained how to do examples given below but not same exmples.

First you need to calculate difference between one day to another. This is done at following link:
http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duration.html
same link I gave in another topic around here somewhere. I have copy of papers from Hieroz and he listed following dates for the Directions.

Hieroz list following dates. Sun Opp Saturn 3 Sept. and Moon Opp Saturn 8 Sept. MC sqr Mars 11 Sept

I cannot get these aspects to work from Lunation chart but they fit using the Aries chart. Also to do this you need a program that allows a complete spin of the wheel such as Delphic Oracle. Morinus only spins the wheel around 100 degree years. Astro.com Alois web, at most I can spin a wheel is around 330 degrees. So any one planning on making a new program for PDs, allow at least one spin of the wheel.

This method can be used on any Yearly chart. Once we agree on Length of Eclipse, it also can be used on Eclipse chart and so on. Example yearly chart value is divide days by 1.0145833. If then Eclipse is measured to 4 hours/years then 4 x 1.0145833 gives 4.0583332 divide the days by this number, then look in PD listing and find arc. Means it takes about 4 days for 1 degree of movement. This is not something new as I stated in other posts and best you use Primary Formulae and not the simple way of a degree of longitude is equal to a degree a day. As said tho, latter will begin to get you into the ball park when lacking a program to do primary direction formulae.

To Aries chart 1939 data is same as in Tom's post 3.21.1939, 12:29 PM UTC Paris 48n52, 2e20

The direction set up I use, Plac Semi Arc, Zodiacal, no latitude, Direct, Promissors to Significators, Naibod timing. The D symbol in text below is for Direct. Z is Zodiacal, PSA Plac Semi Arc and Naibod is timing method followed by Arc of Direction.

Sept 3 date Sun opp Saturn comes to 166 days divide by 1.0145833 gives 163.61 degree days. From D. Oracle looks like this.

Z Sat D opp Sun PSA Naibod 163.855 Sept 3 date.

Sept 8 date Moon opp Saturn comes to 171 days / 1.0145833 gives 168.54 degree days. Looks like this.

Z Sat D opp Moo Naibod 168.717 Sept 8 date

Sept 11 date MC sqr Mars comes to 174 days / 1.0145833 gives 171.49 degree days. Looks like this.

Z MC D dex Sqr Mars PSA Naibod 172.399 Sept 11 date.
Hope I made no typos. Merry Christmas, Michaelb
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