Skyscript Astrology Forum

Therese Hamilton wrote: That is interesting!! Do you have a link to the material on Saptarishis Astrology?

They have been editing the translation from time to time. The articles are spread all over the several volumes available on their website.
I gather all the articles into one single pdf. You can download this compilation from my dropbox here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3d7irqlvfwhf6 ... ita_SA.pdf

(if you have problems with the download, let me know)

Therese Hamilton wrote: Can you tell us about the controversy surrounding this text? What is the dating of the text, and what is the original language? It would seem that it is a modern text as there is so much detail describing planets in nakshatras.

The stories tell us that Ravana was a great devotee of Shiva and after many many pujas and penance Shiva granted him the powers to control the planets. He could make the planets go into specific positions in order to give the results he wanted to achieve. He was said to have the planets chained to his Throne. This was one of the reason he was almost invincible. The Ravana Samhita is the book that has this astrological knowledge .... so the stories say...

I'm afraid I can't tell you much about this text/sources/dates. The information I have are bits and pieces that I have read on the web and on Saptarishis Astrology articles.

Quoting SA:

"Authenticity of Ravana Samhita is doubtful but so far we have found 2 versions and the most original of them is available in a place below Varanasi is what most scholars in Varanasi told us. This version inspite of our volunteer?s efforts have
evaded us. Beloved friend Prof Ramachandra Pandey, Ex-Head Jyotish Dept Banaras Hindu University has given us more specifics but no contact number ?A pandita named Vagishwari Prasad Pathak resident of Gurvalia village in Deoria District near Gorakhpur, brought this book the Ravana Samhita from Nepal. Now that Pandit is no more, but his son Kamakhya Prasad Pathak is using this book in his Astrological practice.? Another team member Ashutosh Kumar says that in Muzaffarpur, Bihar has been to this Pandit and saw it but he wouldn?t share. The one in our possession is not in manuscript form and we ourselves doubt if it is full or totally original version but so far from the commentary that we have published in previous issues you can make out that inspite of its non-original manuscript form, the rules mentioned on nakshatras in Ravana Samhita is most stunning and over rules all nakshatra books so far published. No doubt Ravana was a great scholar and even in the Jyotish famous area of Darbhanga, Bihar the Jyotishis pray to Ravana daily is what is told by Ashutosh Kumar. Another volunteer who has visited the Gorakhpur area Ravana Samhita pandit claims that it contains a lot of mundane astrology prediction (not found in our version) and this prediction his uncle has observed for 30 years all becoming true. All in all the old astrologers belonging to the North Indian Belt of India have often quoted the greatness of Ravana Samhita and though young ones will ignore such rules given in it but the village astrologers commit it to memory to make stunning predictions is what has observed over many years."

I don't recall exactly how I made the connection between The Ravana Samhita and Shubhakaran's Nakshatra books, but I was something I read on a forum or on the net.
I've tried to track it back.. but I have the book since some years , but I found this line in a forum :

"You can try KT Shubhakaran's Nakshtras Vol 1 & 2. Although he didn't mention it explicitly his Vol1 is based on Ravana Samhita and Vol2 on Bhargava Naadika."

So it was something like this that lead me to Shubhakaran.

Therese Hamilton wrote: I see that the book is available on Amazon in Hindi, supposedly translated from the Sanskrit by a Dr. Surkant Jha (2013) I would say this book is highly suspect as to its validity.

hum... yes, true... but all the books coming from India have these amazing covers
But I would not trust it ... I've read several times that because of big fame around this book there is a lot of scams....

The recent translation made by Saptarishis Astrology looks much more reliable. So I'm really looking forward for the rest of the articles. Nevertheless I would still consider Shubhakaran's book, until we have the rest of the SA translation.

Ricardo Moola wrote: (Regarding Ravana Samhita)

They have been editing the translation from time to time. The articles are spread all over the several volumes available on their website.
I gather all the articles into one single pdf. You can download this compilation from my dropbox here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3d7irqlvfwhf6 ... ita_SA.pdf

(if you have problems with the download, let me know)

My computer would not handle the download, nor could I read it online. Do you have the dates when these nakshatra articles were published in Saptarishis Astrology?? I suspect your file is very large, and my computer is from the mid 2000's.

I used to receive the SA newsletter, and the editor has asked me for articles, but recently my computer has stalled when trying to load SA newsletters. So I'm out of touch with SA. So, if possible, please let me know the dates (or the range of dates from Ashvini to the last published article on Punarvasu).

If you have individual links to the nakshatra articles, I would appreciate seeing them.

Many thanks,
Therese

Therese Hamilton wrote: My computer would not handle the download, nor could I read it online. Do you have the dates when these nakshatra articles were published in Saptarishis Astrology??

Now they have all the articles combined in massive pdf with 200/300 pages. So it will even harder to find the articles.
I can still give you the references, but you will have to download the 300 pages volume to read one article. Not very handy....although the rest of the articles are also very interesting and good.

But I've uploaded the pdf on scridb, so now you can either read them online or download. Hope now it's ok.

Here is the link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/235970738/Ravana-Samhita

Best Regards. Ricardo

Ricardo, I could read the articles on scridb. Thank you. But I am primarily interested in the DATES when these articles were published by Saptarishis Astrology. Do you have those dates? Or do you have the final date when Punarvasu was published? I am not interested in downloading the text as there is more detail in Shubhakaran's books on the planets in the nakshatras.

I've noted so far that different authors are providing the translations for different nakshatras. I'm comparing these articles with Shubhakaran's text, and will comment when I know the publication dates.

Also, do you happen to have the links to the original articles in Saptarishis Astrology Journal? (The individual articles, not the compilation.)

Thank you,
Therese

Therese Hamilton wrote:I am primarily interested in the DATES when these articles were published by Saptarishis Astrology. Do you have those dates? Or do you have the final date when Punarvasu was published?

Here are the dates:

Ashwini - Feb 2008
Bharani - May 2008
Kritika - Aug 2008
Rohini - Nov 2008
Mrigasira - Feb 2009
Arda - May 2009
Punarvasu - Dec 2009

Therese Hamilton wrote: Also, do you happen to have the links to the original articles in Saptarishis Astrology Journal? (The individual articles, not the compilation.)

I found the archive:http://www.saptarishisastrology.com/art ... rchive.php

Here you can see them individually.

Ricardo Moola wrote:

Here are the dates:

Ashwini - Feb 2008
Bharani - May 2008
Kritika - Aug 2008
Rohini - Nov 2008
Mrigasira - Feb 2009
Arda - May 2009
Punarvasu - Dec 2009

Thank you, Ricardo. Punarvasu was published five years ago. This confirms my suspicions that SA has discovered that Ravana Samhita is a fraud, and no further nakshatras will be published.

Here are my preliminary conclusions based on a comparison study of Saptarishis Astrology translations of Ravana Samhita and K.T. Shubhakaran?s Nakshatra texts.

No one has been able to track down an elusive original manuscript of Ravana Samhita because one does not exist. The ?original? is K. T. Shubhakaran?s two volume text on the Nakshatras, published by Sagar Publications in 2001 and 2004. Shubhakaran, who grew up in Tamil Nadu, thanks Sagar in his introductory comments.

In the introductory comments in his books Shubhakaran comes across as an honest and humble man, devoted to God, who states that his book is based on several years of research on the nakshatras and their importance for human beings. He also states that he had not seen similar material published in the languages with which he was familiar: English, Malayalam, Tamil and Hindi. Shubhakaran certainly would have mentioned a text called Ravana Samhita if he was taking information from that text.

Note ?Hindi? is the language that Ravana Samhita was supposedly translated to from the Sanskrit. On Amazon the translator of the book is listed as one ?Dr. Surkant Jha.? An internet search reveals that Jha was exposed as a fraud on a forum for publishing a book called ?Raven Samhita? which was largely a copy of Prashna Marga:

http://itzhoroscope.astrosage.com/2011/ ... mhita.html
Wednesday, November 16, 2011
?Ravan Samhita - Mass Fraud Continues?

Quote from article:
?Just after reading few stanzas I could see influence of Kerala Jyotish. I though OK, Lanka is not far from Kerala and it is very much possible. As I kept reading, I started suspecting it. I felt good amount of similarity with Prashna Marga. I started matching stanza by stanza and the Jataka section of Ravan Samhita was nothing but copy of Prashna Marga. To my utter dismay, this was nothing but "Prashna Marga" only and the author Dr. Surkant Jha put it in the book by the name of Ravan Samhita. What a shame.? (Punit Pandey)

In Summary:

(1) In 1991 and 1994 K.T. Shubharkaran published an honest analysis of planets in the nakshtras based on his original research. At first I had largely discounted this book as (in my opinion) one person could not have accomplished so much research. I now have new respect for the author.

(2) Apparently Shubhakaran died sometime afterward. I could find no biographical information on him during an internet search.

(3) Someone (?Dr. Surkant Jha??) then took large segments of Shubhakaran?s original books, translated them into Hindi, and re-named the book ?Ravana Samhita.? Then falling victim to the ruse, a number of astrologers and students came to believe that the book was an ancient text re-discovered.

Most recently the Hindi text has been translated back into English by members of the Saptarishis Astrology team. (Dates listed above) In another post I?ll give comparison examples of the translated English text against Shubhakaran?s original English text. The majority of one ?translation? (Ardra) isn?t a translation at all, but a direct copy word-for-word from Shubhakaran?s text, with text samples partially re-arranged. The author apparently discovered Shubhakaran?s books while working with Ravana Samhita.

(to be continued)

Here I'll list comparison interpretations between K. T. Shubhakaran's Nakshatra: Constellation Based Predictions With Remedial Measures and the bogus text Ravana Samhita. There is much more detail in Shubhakaran's text penned in less than perfect English. The introductory comments are written in the same style. However, some of the Saptarishis Astrology translations from the Hindi show great skill in using the English language as the following statements will demonstrate.

Translation by Rushikesh Deshpande (RD): (very skilled English translation from Hindi)
Sun in Rohini:
If the Sun is in Rohini and receives an aspect of the Moon, the native may earn a living in a profession that serves or addresses the needs of women.Tthe native may also earn money through transportation or maritime industries.

Shubhakaran (KTS):
If Sun in this segment is aspected by the Moon, the naive [sic] renders good service to the female folk and earns out of shipping or water connected industries.

RD: Mars aspect reveals one with a military background or expertise. This placement reflects wealth and social status.

KTS: If aspected by Mars will be an expert in warfare, have wealth and fame.

Rahu in the first quarter of Rohini:
RD: Rahu's presence in the first pada of Rohini reveals a bold native. He will be slender, even though he eats heartily. He will suffer from chronic indigestion and will have weak eyes, but will live a long life. If the ascendant is also in this pada, then Rahu protects him at each step in life.

KTS: He has a slim structure. He is bold. A voracious eater. Windy complaints and indigestion. Eye diseases. If this quarter also happens to be the ascendant, the native is protected out of all evils and he enjoys good longevity.

Now the direct copy from KTS (Ardra): (?Translation? by Babban Kumar Singh (BKS)

BKS: The presiding deity of Ardra nakwhtra is Rudra, the storm god. Rudra is the lord of Destruction. He is the leader of the nervous system. He is the younger brother of lord Indra. Lord Shiva is also known as Rudra.

KTS, page 115: The presiding deity of Ardra nakwhtra is Rudra, the storm god. Rudra is the lord of Destruction. He is the leader of the nervous system. He is the younger brother of lord Indra. Lord Shiva is also known as Rudra. (Exactly the same!)

BKS: If Sun in Ardra Nakshatra & Mercury aspects, he cannot enjoy much benefits in life but his children will get support from the government, he will be subjected to envy from his relatives on account of prosperity of his children.

KTS, page 117: If Mercury aspects, he cannot enjoy much benefits but his children gets all out support from the government, he will be subjected to envy form his other relations on account of prosperity of his children.

Sun in Ardra (First Pada):
BKS: He will be highly educated and wealthy. He can be a good astrologer. Employment may be in the field of Accounts or Mathematics. If Sun in this nakshatra is in association with Jupiter and Mercury, twin birth of male children takes place.

KTS, page 118: He will be highly educated and wealthy. He can be a good astrologer. Employment may be in the field of Accounts or Mathematics. If Sun in this segment is in association with Jupiter and Mercury, twin birth of male children takes place.

--------------End translation examples------------------

I believe there is a belief in India that if you change a word or two here and there, then you are not copying or plagiarizing from someone else. Note that BKS here has repeated the relatively poor English of KTS which indicates that the text wasn?t translated from Hindi. There are numerous examples of direct copying in the Ardra nakshatra article published in the SA newsletter.

A quick survey of the other nakshatras seems to indicate a genuine translation from the Hindi, as concepts are similar to KTS, but the English translation is superior to the original KTS English. The direct copying of Ardra text is relative proof that the Shubhakaran text preceded Ravana Samhita.

Thank you so much Therese for the detailed and amazing analyses of all this situation.
It was really helpful and you did make things much clear.
Indeed now the work of Shubhakaran gains a completly new value.

I also use a lot the 2nd volume of this work : Nakshatra: Constellation Based Predictions II - Dasa Predictions

I wish we could know more about him.

Thanks again for solving this mystery

I'm happy I could help, Ricardo. I also wish we knew more about K.T. Shubhakaran. I will have to review the second book on Dasa Prediction. I have not taken time to study and test ideas in that text, though it has been on my book shelf for many years.

Thank you also for posting the PDF of the SA articles as that enabled me to read and analyze the translations.

Therese writes:

"My conclusion is that the nakshatra stars did not divide the ecliptic into equal portions, but remained as individual stars or asterisms."

This can be verified. If anyone is interested, I will try to find the exact quote. In 1025 CE, al-Biruni records during his visit to India that he encountered astrologers who treated the nakshatras in two different fashions: Those who divide them equally into 13.20 degrees, and those who observe them by naked eye astronomy alone without counting degrees.

Therefore the more ancient method suggested by Therese was still being practiced as late as the 11th century.

Ken, if you can find that reference, I'd like to see it. It may come in handy for future reference.

P.S. Your book is still my favorite reference for the Mansions. I often compare entries with Prash Trivedi's 27 Celestial Portals.

Kenneth Johnson wrote:

In 1025 CE, al-Biruni records during his visit to India that he encountered astrologers who treated the nakshatras in two different fashions: Those who divide them equally into 13.20 degrees, and those who observe them by naked eye astronomy alone without counting degrees.

Therefore the more ancient method suggested by Therese was still being practiced as late as the 11th century.

This double tradition seems to have been carried through even into the 20th century. In his astrology books, B.V. Raman's grandfather, B. Suryanarain Rao (1856-1937), a contemporary of Sri Yukteswar, lists the longitudes of the 28 Nakshatra stars while still applying characteristics of the 27 equal mansions in the text, especially in Strijataka (female horoscopy). He writes in the preface to his listing of the 28 nakshatra stars:

The following table shows the English names of the Nakshatras or chief stars of the 28 constellations together with their true longitudes and latitudes with respect to the position of the Hindu first point of Aries which is 10' to the east of the star Revati according to Suryasiddhanta.

Then in Nick Kanas' Star Maps (Praxis Publishing, 2007) in the color section there is a diagram from India reproduced from a book published in 1924 of the constellations with the nakshatra stars marked in red. There are no mansion boundaries in the diagram, only the stars of the actual constellations. Vega in Lyra is noted as Abhijit along with two other smaller stars, xi and zeta.