How about immortality?

Love it! (Not sure I?d want to do it ? but I love the answer just the same)

Not sure I'd want to do it either -sounds exhausting, doesn't it?

To come back with ?why not? may be a smart answer but I also think it is a copout, avoidance if you will, and I am not having a go at you, this paragraph is a separate thought. (So why do natural laws exist? ? Who put them there? Why do they work consistently, inexorably, through time without end? What did I do to kick this off? - and hey! For me it doesn't have to be a crisis, it could be anything - I'm sure I didn't plan half the stuff that happens to me! Who's in charge here anyway? I had something else entirely in mind! Why can't I look like Kathleen Turner?)

Various quotes come to mind here. These things are sent to try us. Life happens when we're making other plans. If you want to make the gods laugh, tell them your plans. Of course I have thought about the "why" and I think it's quite likely we reap what we sow. The karmic explanation would seem to make sense. What goes around comes around. Having said that though, it could all be random couldn't it? Again, there's no actual proof either way. It's not so much a case of what one chooses to believe as this apparent "need" to believe in a reason or cause. Even if what happens is out of our control, we always have the choice (freewill?) as to how we react to it and deal with it.

Bear in mind I've used extreme examples and for many people the decisions or incidents which kick off soul-searching value changes are a great deal less important than those above. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

Yes, they are rather extreme examples and in some cases choice (albeit difficult) is involved in allowing certain circumstances to continue. However, I agree of course that it is the tough experiences which provoke the soul-searching, not to mention the good old AFOG! (Was that mentioned in this forum or another? I can't remember, but you know what I mean.)

I not only believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I actually do accept that others opinions can differ from mine? which is why you will not find me trying to persuade you to my point of view in this case. Will I discuss it? Of course I will. Will I argue I?m right and someone else is wrong wrong? No, I hope not.

I'm of the same mind, even though I know I do have a tendency to think (but try not to say) that I'm right and someone else is wrong. I'm working on that though cos that attitude can spoil a good discussion I do enjoy challenging people's beliefs though, as long as they don't get over-sensitive and take offence. Some people can't bear to have their beliefs challenged, often because they cling to them, often out of fear unfortunately.

However it also allows that some don?t reach a conclusion, which is what I think you are saying ? that the jury?s still out.

That's partly what I'm saying but what I'm also saying, or asking perhaps, is why is it important? Why does it matter? Obviously for some people, it does matter. But the serenity prayer comes to mind here - you know, accepting the things you can't change, courage to change the things you can and the wisdom to know the difference

I could just be babbling again!! (<-- I?ve no idea what ?lala happy? means ? to me this is ROTFL ? I do actually take a lot of things at face value, not everything's D&M ).

LOL! No, I don't think you're babbling at all. You make a lot of sense and I've always enjoyed these types of discussions. I know I'm going to kick myself when you tell me, but what does D&M mean?

Cheers,
Fi

Hi TS

Where there?s a need to be, love (lief) usually follows.

I'd be interested to know where you think this "need" comes from? Being is simply being. Where does need come into it? Or am I missing your point?

Cheers,
Fi

I'd be interested to know where you think this "need" comes from? Being is simply being. Where does need come into it? Or am I missing your point?

One of my favourite quotes:

"I don't believe in anything." (Krishnamurti)

Cheers.

Where there?s a need to be, love (lief) usually follows.
Reason is the faculty of mind ? organized conscious thought is a part of the mind.
Then there?s also mind over matter ? mind as a state of be-ing ? Lol!.
Not forgetting, where there?s a need to be ...

Just seems to keep going round and round.

TS ? whatever it is you?re taking, I think you need to stop

Ah well, if I recall rightly so is 'pi' and I hear it?s been proved transcendental.

Now that?s truly frightening. (Just an aside ? if anyone?s read ?Life of Pi? ? did they find that switcheroo at the end familiar? I felt I?d seen the movie or read/heard it before, but can?t figure out where - Andrew?).

Hi Fi (!)

Various quotes come to mind here. These things are sent to try us. Life happens when we're making other plans. If you want to make the gods laugh, tell them your plans.

I try to remind myself of these constantly!

Of course I have thought about the "why" and I think it's quite likely we reap what we sow. The karmic explanation would seem to make sense. What goes around comes around.

Aah?so perhaps it isn?t a total ?non-belief? in anything after all?

Having said that though, it could all be random couldn't it? Again, there's no actual proof either way.

I?m not convinced of this, more to the point, I don?t think you are either, since you?ve just disagreed with yourself don't worry, I do it often. As previously discussed, I don't believe there is anything random about natural law and the word karma has been used as an alternative term ? it?s cause and effect. No matter how you look at it. Many people have an enormous amount of trouble coming to terms with this very simple concept.

It's not so much a case of what one chooses to believe as this apparent "need" to believe in a reason or cause.

Now I think we?re getting to the crux of the matter. It is interesting isn?t it, in fact I find it quite fascinating even in myself ? this drive and the extremes to which it takes some? Where does it come from? What sparks and then propels and sustains it?

Some people are brought up in their parent?s belief system and accept it all their lives without question. Others adopt one because of marriage, children or community (seemed the thing to do). Still others don?t have an inherited basis for belief and don?t ever find it necessary to develop or adopt one. For all the positives read the reverse situations as well. And then there are the rest of us . . . this ?is there something more and why can?t people agree what it is and do they know something I don't?? Once this idea takes root, it seems to be very persistent, it just doesn?t let go does it? Just sort of bubbles away in the background until one finds a belief system (or bits and pieces) that ?fits? comfortably enough to accept.

Some people can't bear to have their beliefs challenged, often because they cling to them, often out of fear unfortunately.

This is unfortunately true.

what I'm also saying, or asking perhaps, is why is it important? Why does it matter?

TS and Andrew have both picked up on this, because this is the real question, I think you are asking ?why do people have this need to have a belief system?? I don?t know Fi, I can?t answer this any better than the last person you asked. What I can confirm is that for some of us it is a continual and never ending quest - of picking up an idea here and a belief there and continually building and changing the whole. It is fluid, as we adapt and adopt, but we are continually inspecting the information that either we seek out or which comes within our ken and listening for a whispered ?yes!?

But the serenity prayer comes to mind here - you know, accepting the things you can't change, courage to change the things you can and the wisdom to know the difference

This has always been and will always remain, good advice.

D&M = deep and meaningful
AFOG = remind me again?


Now Andrew?

One of my favourite quotes:

"I don't believe in anything." (Krishnamurti)

? you just know I don?t believe you


Cheers,
Sungem

Sorry TS -

...the be-love penny just dropped!

Belief ... Belove(d)? I'm sure you all read this in the Divination thread when Andrew posted it, but I'll copy it here -

We have this state of oneness with the Beloved and it is really a condition of love. But with what are you united? With nothing -- with a black hole. God is nothingness...when you have the union with the Beloved alone in meditation you are united with nothingness. But this nothingness responds, it's a feedback, it loves you absolutely and utterly...But in the moments of oneness where I said there is a complete fulfillment, God is everything but nothingness, it is a complete fullness...Fullness; take away fullness from fullness, fullness alone remains." (Irina Tweedie)

... am I easily impressed or what?

Sungem

Hi Sungem

Aah?so perhaps it isn?t a total ?non-belief? in anything after all?

you?ve just disagreed with yourself don't worry, I do it often. As previously discussed, I don't believe there is anything random about natural law and the word karma has been used as an alternative term ? it?s cause and effect. No matter how you look at it. Many people have an enormous amount of trouble coming to terms with this very simple concept.

But it's only cause and effect, or karma, if you choose to connect. You do something "good" and something "good" happens to you. This is a comforting thought but is there really a connection? This is where belief comes in. You believe there is and I'm not convinced, lol! So I didn't actually contradict myself, merely pointed out two contrasting possibilities. Say, one day it's proved to be cause and effect? Fine. It's proved to be random? Also, fine. I don't need to believe either way. What real difference does it make to us here and now?

F It's not so much a case of what one chooses to believe as this apparent "need" to believe in a reason or cause.

S Now I think we?re getting to the crux of the matter.

Yes! I think we digressed a little but with Gemini and Sag, that's understandable

Once this idea takes root, it seems to be very persistent, it just doesn?t let go does it? Just sort of bubbles away in the background until one finds a belief system (or bits and pieces) that ?fits? comfortably enough to accept.

Very true. Discovering Taoism was the release moment for me. No belief system needed (in the conventional sense at least, i.e. gods, higher powers, deeper meanings etc). "Everything is perfect as it is, how could it be otherwise?" (Remove the word "perfect" and it makes better sense.)

I think you are asking ?why do people have this need to have a belief system?? I don?t know Fi, I can?t answer this any better than the last person you asked. What I can confirm is that for some of us it is a continual and never ending quest - of picking up an idea here and a belief there and continually building and changing the whole. It is fluid, as we adapt and adopt, but we are continually inspecting the information that either we seek out or which comes within our ken and listening for a whispered ?yes!?

Yes. However, it suggests to me a kind of discontent with what "is". A kind of need for something "more" than what we have and what we know for sure. Or am I being unfair here? We have both mentioned the "comfort" word and perhaps that is the key to it. Some people need a belief system/structure in order to feel comfortable; others don't.

D&M = deep and meaningful

Ah! Thanks

AFOG = remind me again?

Another F****** Opportunity for Growth

Now Andrew?

One of my favourite quotes:

"I don't believe in anything." (Krishnamurti)

LOL! Excellent

? you just know I don?t believe you

Heheh....

Cheers,
Fi (who is getting back to her footie charts for a little light relief)

Ficina,

I?ve followed your comments with a lot of interest and agreement. If someone bases their actions on the belief in karma, ie, as you put it ?You do something "good" and something "good" happens to you?, it?s really a self-centred motivation of expecting some sort of return ? so where is the ?goodness? in it?

It?s much better to do something for the pleasure it gives you to do it. And I don?t believe that a realisation that there may be nothing after death would fundamentally change anyone?s actions, because we can only be what we are, and few people feel good doing something that their inner self tells them is wrong.

? you just know I don?t believe you

Okee dokee.

I believe that everything is a working hypothesis, a starting point rather than a conclusion.

Someone else on this thread asked the question, "How do we know that we really know anything?"

Exactly.

I included the Tweedie quote because it was about nothingness. But I can't even say that I believe in nothingness, can I? Belief is irrelevant, experience is beyond belief. And all of it is still just a working hypothesis, considered from the plane of cognition.

So there!

Hi Deb

I?ve followed your comments with a lot of interest and agreement.

If someone bases their actions on the belief in karma, ie, as you put it ?You do something "good" and something "good" happens to you?, it?s really a self-centred motivation of expecting some sort of return ? so where is the ?goodness? in it?

Yes, that is one of the potential pitfalls inherent in the reaping and sowing scenario. If one doesn't have a Good Intention (i.e. an altruistic one), then it probably won't work! It's simply amassing karmic brownie points or storing up treasures in heaven. On the other hand if it means people avoid doing "bad" things so that something "bad" doesn't happen to them, then that can only be a Good Thing in the long run, however self-interested the motivation. In that recent TV poll on the Modern Top 10 Commandments, number 1 turned out to be "Do unto others etc", although I'd have preferred it to have been "Don't do unto others etc".

It?s much better to do something for the pleasure it gives you to do it.

Not to mention the pleasure it gives to others. Or, better still, to do it for its own sake. But I'm getting into saintly territory here It's very difficult not to feel pleased with yourself when you've done something good.

And I don?t believe that a realisation that there may be nothing after death would fundamentally change anyone?s actions, because we can only be what we are, and few people feel good doing something that their inner self tells them is wrong.

Very true.

I believe that everything is a working hypothesis, a starting point rather than a conclusion.

Is it true that no philosophical argument ever reaches a conclusion? I've heard it said that that is the most common reason for Philosophy students to give up the course.

But I can't even say that I believe in nothingness, can I?

If nothingness exists then there's no need to believe in it. It simply is. (Working hypothesis of course.)

experience is beyond belief.

Subjectivity being the common denominator. Is belief usually dependent upon experience?

So there!

Hi Deb

If someone bases their actions on the belief in karma, ie, as you put it ?You do something "good" and something "good" happens to you?, it?s really a self-centred motivation of expecting some sort of return ? so where is the ?goodness? in it?

If someone?s really living like this they need to get a grip ? or a life ? or another hobby!


Hi Ficina

England has television polls to rewrite the 10 Commandments. The mind boggles.

Say, one day it's proved to be cause and effect? Fine. It's proved to be random? Also, fine. I don't need to believe either way. What real difference does it make to us here and now?

Not much really ?

Some people need a belief system/structure in order to feel comfortable; others don't.

Didn't I say that about 3 posts ago?

AFOG = remind me again?
Another F****** Opportunity for Growth

Ah yes ? Patrick Curry ... ain't it the truth

Andrew: I believe that everything is a working hypothesis, a starting point rather than a conclusion.

Yes, that?ll do ? I?ll adopt that ? momentarily. I?m a work in progress. Now why didn?t you say that weeks ago and save me the brain strain?

Yes! I think we digressed a little but with Gemini and Sag, that's understandable

Yes, and I?m a Gemini with a Sag ascendant. I have the attention span of a gnat. And I?ve been on this for ? hang on while I look ? 2 weeks!!!!!!!!!

I've heard it said that that is the most common reason for Philosophy students to give up the course.

I am in complete sympathy with them.

Discovering Taoism was the release moment for me.

Ri-iii-ight ... so you don?t believe in anything except a major Chinese religion.

Fi (who is getting back to her footie charts for a little light relief)

Gawd! ? next you?ll be telling me you believe in astrology!

Thank you linesmen, thank you ball boys ? I?m done! To muddy a metaphor ? this goose is cooked!

Cheers,
Sungem

P.S.
A much more erudite discussion of "As above, so below" can be seen at:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=517