Zoidsoft wrote:

I currently lean toward a time shortly after 8 am with Scorpio rising as fitting the chronology better than any other I've seen so far. I haven't checked all possible combinations for that day, but the 2:08 am time is achrematistikos for the zodiacal releasing method.

Hi Curtis,

Please keep in mind this is not an exclusively traditional forum. People come here with all kinds of approaches. Moreover, I think even a majority of traditional astrologers would find your terminology baffling.

If you are going to use Greek words like ''achrematistikos'' please explain such terminology in plain English.

Thanks

Mark

Here is the Wall Street Journal article Patrick Watson referred to which discusses the astrology of both Presidential candidates charts and the confusion over Clinton's exact time of birth. As mainstream media coverage of astrology goes this isn't bad.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/whos-demand ... 1475167293

Mark

Thanks, Mark. Whether accidentally or on purpose by the Wall Street Journal, the font of the article was too light to read on my screen. But in "print preview" mode the article and pictures were sharp and clear.

Mark wrote:If you are going to use Greek words like ''achrematistikos'' please explain such terminology in plain English.

"Chrematistikos" in Greek means "busy" or "telling". When an "a" is placed in front as a prefix, it negates the meaning (turns into the opposite). Otherwise, "not busy" and "not telling". Valens says that when some methods aren't telling (achrematistikos) that one falls back on other methods. The reason why these two meanings are linked is because a static (for lack of a better word) image in the sky doesn't say much, but a busy one says more.

The astrology podcast with Chris Brennan and Patrick Watson. This edition looks at the controversy over Hillary's Clinton's chart.
http://theastrologypodcast.com/2016/09/ ... ta-issues/

When in doubt.... I just googled "Illinois birth certificates" and came up with the following web page:

http://www.idph.state.il.us/vitalrecord ... efault.htm

It notes that Illinois birth certificates are available only to the named individual, or to a child's parents or guardian. This leaves the question of how an astrologer could have obtained a valid Illinois birth certificate.

Click on types of certificates available, and we find:

For $10 for the first copy and $2 for each additional copy of the same certificate requested at the same time, you will obtain a birth certificate with the following items: child?s name, date of birth, sex, place of birth (city, county, state), mother/co-parent?s maiden name, mother/co-parent?s place of birth (state/country), mother/co-parent?s age, father/co-parent?s name, father/co-parent?s place of birth (state/country), father/co-parent?s age, file date, date issued, and, state file number.

For $15 for the first copy and $2 for each additional copy of the same certificate requested at the same time, you will obtain a birth certificate with information collected at the time of your birth (information has varied throughout the years).

The normal birth certificate duplicate copy issued today does not include time of birth. You can request a copy of the certificate as-issued on your birth date. Jurisdictions sometimes change what information they collect. Does anyone know whether Illinois collected birth times in 1947 or not?

I did a little more digging, and couldn't find whether Illinois did or did not record birth times in 1947. But I did come across the information that Illinois required all birth times recorded prior to 1959 to be in Central Standard Time, regardless of the birth date.

Also, in 1947 Illinois went off daylight savings time on September 28, whereas today the time doesn't change until November 6.

Let's hope Clinton's to-be-revealed secretive birth time is in standard time.

waybread, I can't cite chapter and verse because it's been so long, but back in the day when we all used Doris Chase Doane's Time Zone Atlas (and later, the vastly improved ACS compendiums), I remember reading that Indiana and Illinois presented the most confusing pictures of any of the states.

For example, even though CDT might have been in effect statewide, times were officially recorded on medical records in CST notation - and there is no way to know which hospitals observed that peculiar requirement. As if that weren't bad enough, towns and counties close to state borders were "no man's lands", where even the state was indeterminate!

One seeks solace in Geoffrey Cornelius' view on the matter, i.e. time of birth is a Ptolemaic distinction, and "first breath" charts are not necessarily the most telling. It's enough to make one tear one's hair.

Waybread wrote:

I did a little more digging, and couldn't find whether Illinois did or did not record birth times in 1947. But I did come across the information that Illinois required all birth times recorded prior to 1959 to be in Central Standard Time, regardless of the birth date.

Often there is an hour/minute listed on the hospital record of birth at the time a child is born, but the time isn't carried over to the birth certificate. A hospital record would probably be more accurate than a certified copy of a birth certificate. Today parents have copies of both, but in the 1940s I doubt there were the same standards for paperwork and what was given to parents. Copying documents was much more difficult than it is today.

Waybread wrote:

It notes that Illinois birth certificates are available only to the named individual, or to a child's parents or guardian. This leaves the question of how an astrologer could have obtained a valid Illinois birth certificate.

It remains to be seen whether Marc Penfield has obtained a scan of the birth certificate or whether he is just going to reveal the birth time his contact sourced for him.

If you go back to the ISAR press release there is no actual mention of the birth certificate being produced:

According to astrologer Marc Penfield, both the Cook County and State of Illinois record divisions last week verified a time of birth as recorded for Hillary Rodham that took place on October 26, 1947.

Mark

i know she was born at edgewater hospital for that matter so was john wayne gacy ... the hospital is being torn down -- i made futile attempts to locate hospital records, and checked out the local methodist churches for baptismal records ... nada.

There was a couple, a mother and son pair a tom & thelma , who mined cook county birth data which is why those laws were instated ... however, i did acquire richard m daley's birth certificate through a request in the old Mercury Hour.

Mark wrote:Patrick Watson wrote:

If it is the 2:18 am time first given to us by Zayin Cohen, then I have serious doubts that it has gotten us any closer to the real time.

I got back in touch with Zayin Cohen. He said as you annoyed him probing for a copy of the birth certificate and the official he got it from he decided to ''get rid of you'' by giving you an incorrect time. Hence he states the 01.18am time you were given by is not correct. He informs me he is working with the 02.08am time which is correct. His astrological FB posts support that.

Its obviously a bizarre thing to do. Why not ''get rid of you'' with the correct data?

However, it will be interesting to see what time Penfield comes up with.

If its 02.08am it will corroborate what Zayin Cohen is saying. If its 02.18am I will still have my doubts. Still, considering his reputation why would he risk ruining that with false data?

Mark

That is positively absurd! He gave me 1:18 am before I asked him if I could see it. It was literally the first thing he said. I have the chatlog to back it up.

The only reason I'd ever publicly disclose a private conversation is to expose dishonesty regarding a matter of public interest, which I want to do here now. It's clear he only got annoyed, and rather petty I might add, once I asked about proof of the certificate.

You can read the conversation here which I've captured with screenshots, to prove that I haven't edited anything: http://www.patrickwatsonastrologer.com/ ... sation.jpg

What do you think?