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253 by james_m
Tom wrote:
Interesting that Mars and Pluto were also conjunct at 15 Leo in Clinton's chart on Oct 26, 1947 which forms a 6th / 8th house relationship to each other.
The ancients can't guide us on this one, but in that chart, Pluto is besieged. Anyone with modern leanings want to help with that? This is true regardless of birth time. Birth time tells us where it happens.
i am curious what zoidsoft means by 'forms a 6th/ 8th house relationship to each other.' is this the mars pluto in hillarys chart to the transiting mars pluto in the final debate chart that you are referring to? saying it is an approx 150 aspect from hillarys chart to the debate chart might be the same way of putting this, if so..

regarding toms question, i see pluto as a malefic myself.. so, a besieged malefic doesn't seem to make much difference - all bad mojo in that area of the chart would be a simple interpretation of it.. but since we are on this topic, i don't recall anyone discussing hillarys besieged venus, but maybe someone has?


anyway - about these debates and the last one on oct 19th in las vegas for 6pm local time, i note mars/pluto on the midheaven.. i suppose someone has already talked about this.. the last degree of aries tropical is rising for the 6pm start.. there is also a fairly close mercury opp uranus on this date as well.. maybe i am wrong but i don't think there is anything all that eventful in the debate process itself for this or any of the other dates.. moon applies directly to the mars/pluto via 16th harmonic aspects for a little after the time of the debate close.. that is moon close to 157 degree aspect to mars/pluto. 135 aspect with the 22.30 aspect gives 157.30 as exact.. anything untoward that would happen, would have to happen after the debate is over, but again if you widen the orb, the moon hits on this mars/pluto conjunction in this general window of time too, so it is interesting from a certain obscure astro technique pov!

254 by Vicki
zoidsoft wrote:Interesting that Mars and Pluto were also conjunct at 15 Leo in Clinton's chart on Oct 26, 1947 which forms a 6th / 8th house relationship to each other. Maybe they will both get shot at the debate and we'll have to start over... :shock:
Yes well it was Mars at 14 Leo and Pluto at 14 Leo 50 when she was born. The star Dubhe in Ursa Major was at 14 Leo 27, a star described as having the nature of Mars with destructive and violent energy.
Pluto reaches an exact antiscion conj. with Saturn on 3rd Nov close to the Star Manubrium, a star associated with explosions. This then forms a quincunx aspect to this Mars/Pluto radical conj.
There is then also a destructive influence coming from Saturn which will be close to the star Wei epsilon Scorpio at the time of the antiscion conj. and will be in trine aspect to her Mars/ Pluto conj.

This effect has already begun and continues over the next few weeks. Certainly the current explosive antiscion inconjunction relates to world events but it is especially worrying that it is transiting Clinton's natal chart planets which are in themselves attended by a violent star.

With Trump the antiscion inconjunction aspects his radical Jupiter with a wider orb but then he has greater problems with his lunar return!

trump and the election

256 by amymaddalozzo
as an American, I cannot wait for this damn election to get over with!! I am in the camp that Hillary will win--as a practical manner, the system we have in the US is biased in favor of democrats but Trump does not help himself, he only makes things worse.
First of all, I see transiting mars and also transiting Uranus opposing his natal venus and Saturn right before the election. Does any one think, like me, that his wife could leave him and this could cause a firestorm?
After the election, transiting Saturn will aspect natal sun, moon and rahu. I think that this could indicate a serious health issue for Trump. Not that Hillary doesn't have hers--she has transiting Uranus opposing her natal sun in the near future if she is the president. Thoughts?? AMY

257 by james_m
Tom wrote:
i don't recall anyone discussing hillarys besieged venus, but maybe someone has?
How is Hillary's Venus besieged? It's between the Sun and Mercury
hi tom,

from skyscripts page on besieged planets
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/beseiged.html

Besieged

Bonatus describes a besieged planet as one that separates from a malefic and applies to another (Con. 6). It shows a situation that is going from bad to worse.

William Lilly described a planet besieged as one that lies between the bodies of the two malefics Mars and Saturn. His example is Mars at 10 ? Aries, Venus 13? Aries, and Saturn 15? Aries. It is generally accepted that besiegement can occur by aspect as well as bodily conjunction. As a principle it refers to a planet trapped by hostile forces on either side.

lets talk about it!

amy

i think health is always an issue for older people regardless of the astro, but when the astro is more poignant, it maybe ups the ante a bit. i am not convinced that the astro speaks directly to health matters, but i suppose it is possible. the sun as a general symbol for health under stress for saturn or an outer planet might signify this... i haven't been looking for it, so i can't really say from this angle.. maybe someone has looked at it closer from this angle then me..

i agree with you 100% about wishing it was over already!

259 by Tom
I checked a few sources, and by ?checked? I mean ?skimmed.? The oldest source I found that defines besiegement was Ibn Ezra and he includes aspects. Bonatti, too specifically says it includes aspects or in the jargon of the day ?rays.? Moving up a few centuries, Morinus includes aspects as well. So Hillary Clinton?s Venus is besieged.

The problem I found is that other than saying it is bad, none of the sources I looked at said more than that. Why would Venus in Scorpio besieged by Mars and Saturn in Leo be any worse than Venus in Scorpio? My sources are apparently silent, but it is always possible they are more specific in other places in their respective works.

I don't know if this is going to impact her election chances or not. It more closely comes under the heading of natal astrology or specifically traditional natal astrology. Election or not, it's nasty, and it applies regardless of birth time. But the area of life where it will be felt does depend on birth time. I started writing something and I may post it on the Traditional Forum, but as an example of beseigement not as a predictor of electoral success or failure. I can't recall seeing a besieged planet by aspect before. I'm sure they're out there, but not too common, so the topic is worthwhile.

If I can come up with something I like, I'll post it - just not sure where yet.

260 by james_m
thanks tom,

i wonder if besiegement is another horary astrology tool that some folks try to apply to other avenues of astrology? that is about the only thought i can share on it.... from the pov of hillarys marriage to bill it's interesting, but i'm not sure how much one wants to read into that..

one could even make an argument that trumps venus and pluto are besieged by saturn/mars! it might be less significant if only because it runs a few signs, but i am not so sure. there was a book written in the 70's called planetary containment, or something like that - which was quite interesting in that it would line up three planets and give an overview of what it meant with the one in the middle and etc.. actually it is called 'planets in containment' a study of 900 combinations by john sandbach and ronn ballard.

number 350 is saturn-venus-mars which if you leave out pluto - applies to trump..
number 335 is mars-venus-saturn which again, if you leave out pluto - applies to hillary.

let me know if you'd like to hear the interpretation these authors give for them..

261 by Tom
I'd like to hear those for sure. I don't want to get off topic. This is a either way position. But on the topic of besiegement , Morin said something like if the besieged planet is faster than both of the besieging planets, and in this case it is, then what it represents in the chart will be notable in effects.

I did a quick check of transits, progressions and directions and didn't see anything hitting Venus, Mars or Saturn that would set this off. But, using the 8:02 am time, which I admit is subjective or at least no better than any other time, this puts Venus in her 12th house. Just today the National Enquirer, a rough equivalent to British Tabloids, came out with an announcement that a guy who set up sex trysts for Hillary and provided other underhanded services has told all to them. He has of course, revealed all. Whether he can be believed or not is a different matter, but it all fits Venus in Scorpio in 12 so well and the fact that this came out, true or not, fits Venus in Scorpio in 12. I'll have to explain that in depth another time. Things are happening too fast in the election for analysis.

Out of bonds Mars and Venus causing the disturbance?

262 by Aurelia
Anyone relating recent events with out of bond Mars (being exalted in Capricorn) and also out of bonds Venus (being conjunct with Sag Saturn?)...
Besides usual understanding that New Moon in Scorpio means "revealing secrets" (if you agree)...

Two planets being out of bonds (Mars is not anymore, but was until Oct 29th - the day before new moments occurred in the election process)

BTW hi everyone :)

263 by Mark
Aurelia wrote:
BTW hi everyone
Hello Aurelia,

Welcome to Skyscript and the mundane forum in particular. You clearly have sound judgement in choosing to make your first ever Skyscript post in this forum!

I look forward to hearing more from you.

regards,

Mark
Mundane Forum Moderator
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

264 by Aurelia
Hello Mark, how do you do :)
Not sure how can anyone have a sane judgment regarding this elections :) but it gives us a fantastic opportunity to learn...
I mean we have an extraordinary events, both "on earth" and "in the sky"... what more can we ask for?! ;) I remember how scared butvat thecsame time excited I was about grand cross forming in the sky as it held a promise of events which happened afterwards (ISIS rise, Middle East turmoil)... Excited for the opportunity to learn, and scarred because planets involved promised it will not be just a game...
What I'm looking forward to see now is how anaretic AND exalted Mars plays out in final day of elections.. I guess the results will be known when Mars already enters Aquarius - so how will that play out? Unexpected winner aka Bernie Sanders, or some of the two we hear about all the time - but who would fit in the description of being "Uranian type"? A woman but connected with elites or a tv personality but with conservative agenda? Neither fits the description fully in my opinion...
Somehow I'm neglecting other planets involvement, as they are not showing any "extrairdinary behavior" - or am I in wrong?
Of course - there is also a possibility of revolution with astrological conditions like this (let's not forget Jupiter is in a justice-loving Libra, and Mars being on 0 Aqua) ...but then again it doesn't seem US is a fertile ground for that... Anyhow, I'm looking forward to read what's written here once it's all over ;)
P.S. All the attacks on the credibility of mainstream media might reach their goal - people trust them less and less - maybe that's the revolution we are about to see? I mean Wikileaks started the uproar - who knows what comes next?
In short: Saturn in Sag (ideology shift, going back to the roots - but what are they when it's about USA? That's to be seen) +Jupiter in Libra +Mars behaving in extraordinarily powerful way are the key planets to watch I believe.. Any thoughts?.
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