Therese, I think your sources are preaching to the choir, or the converted, as the case may be.

You might also consider Cayce's "cures" that failed, or that the "seer" apparently didn't realize that some of the cure requests concerned patients who had already died by the time Cayce got to them and offered his cures. One skeptic painstakingly matched Cayce's trance statements to things he was recently reading in the newspaper or picked up from other mystics of the day. Some of his prescriptions were common folk remedies.

Whatever Cayce's abilities might have been as a psychic, I would put no credibility on him in assigning planetary sign rulerships.

In a partial answer to James, just because we practice astrology does not mean we have to uncritically accept any other mystical truth-claim that comes along.

Cayce didn't assign rulerships to signs. He merely said that "Vulcan and Pluto were one and the same."

Waybread, something seems to be eating you, expressed as anger and bitterness. So I'm leaving this conversation.

waybread wrote:Michael-- re: your OP.

So no to Pluto as ruler of Aries. If we want a candidate for Aries, dwarf planet Eris is a much better fit.

In my view, Eris is one of the seven major bodies of the Kuiper Belt or "Seven Dwarfs" (as our forum friend Cruiser 1 a.k.a. Walter Pullen likes to call them), along with Haumea, Makemake, Gonggong, Quaoar, Sedna, and Orcus. The Kuiper Belt I regard as the asteroid belt's analogy in the outer solar system. Much like most of us don't consider asteroids as sign rulers, neither should we see the plutoids as such. Arbitrarily introducing one of them would disrupt the rulership scheme, which remains the theoretical foundation of astrology, even in its modern extension.

Pluto however is still in the league of astrological planets, for reasons I have discussed in my Transpluto topic.

Pluto has an inexorable quality to it. A hard Pluto transit will kill off anything metaphorically dead or dying in one's life. It does have an underworld quality to it. It does have the quality of the Phoenix, but the death in the ashes part is essential and not to be circumvented.

And so is Pluto's quality of resurrection.

In temperate climates of the northern hemisphere, the month of Scorpio coincides with deciduous trees losing their leaves, frost hitting the planets, the sun well to the south, shorter days, and a sort of "death" or under-ground period of nature.

In the Mediterranean region, autumn is a time for the fall planting of winter wheat and barley, with the seeds going underground, Persephone-like, to e-emerge with the winter rains.

Our zodiacal month is derived from the Babylonian calendar, with early spring being the time for the new crop of lambs.

Nature indeed "goes underground" in Fall and reawakens come Spring. As the story goes, Hades abducted Persephone to his chthonic realm, bringing on an endless winter; but he eventually consented to release her to be reunited with her mother during the warmer seasons.

In astrology, Pluto's influence not only conceals things, but also makes them (violently) burst out into the open.

Pluto therefore matches both Scorpio and Aries, he is of a profoundly bipolar nature. And I increasingly believe that astrologers should assign the trans-Saturnians double rulerships, just as has always been the case with the traditional planets.

As Geoffrey Chaucer put it in the 14th century:

"Whan that Aprille with his shoures sote

The droghte of Marche hath perced to the rote,

And bathed every veyne in swich licour,

Of which vertu engendred is the flour;

Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth

Inspired hath in every holt and heeth

The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne

Hath in the Ram his halfe cours y-ronne,

And smale fowles maken melodye....

Than longen folk to goon on pilgrimages...:

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Pluto however is still in the league of astrological planets, for reasons I have discussed in my Transpluto topic.

Michael, can you please post a link to your Transpluto topic?

Therese Hamilton wrote:Michael wrote:

As for Edgar Cayce, he said many fascinating and inspiring things. Just for the record, I was a member of the A.R.E. myself for a short while and have a collection of the sleeping prophet's readings on a CD-ROM. However, I do take some of his statements with a grain of salt.

Do you have a CD that works??!! I have three going back to the days of DOS, but none of them will work now. The only way to access the readings is to become an A.R.E. member.

Well, if you no longer own a computer that is able to run the disk, perhaps this new version would be an option?

https://www.amazon.com/New-Complete-Edg ... 0876045115

Therese Hamilton wrote:Michael Sternbach wrote:

Pluto however is still in the league of astrological planets, for reasons I have discussed in my Transpluto topic.

Michael, can you please post a link to your Transpluto topic?

Voilà madame!

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8402

Michael wrote:

Well, if you no longer own a computer that is able to run the disk, perhaps this new version would be an option?

https://www.amazon.com/New-Complete-Edg ... 0876045115

I have that particular CD. It doesn't work.

Michael, thanks for the Transpluto link. If I have any further comments on Pluto, I'll post them on that topic.

No anger or bitterness, Therese.

I just cannot add 2 +2 and get them to equal 5. Perhaps I feel a bit frustrated that some here seem able to do this.

There is no planet Vulcan, as Pluto or really, as anything else. There is a hypothetical planet Vulkanus in Uranian (Hamburg school) astrology, but it has no actual existence.

Michael, I do sometimes wonder if the dwarf planets (minus Pluto) function more as asteroids than as planets, notably Ceres. The trans-Neptunians other than Pluto have really been studied too little to make any firm pronouncement.

But Eris is virtually the same size as Pluto. Eris has more density than Pluto. It has a moon. Its orbit sometimes loops in between the orbits of Neptune and Pluto, so sometimes it is closer to the sun than Pluto; and sometimes nearly as close as Neptune.

Pluto is not a good match with Aries, which has symbolized new beginnings ever since the Babylonians adopted their spring equinox-based calendar.

Are you familiar with Henry Seltzer's book on Eris, The Tenth Planet? Highly recommended. He really did his homework, unlike a lot of the evolutionary astrology wishful thinking.

Eris works fairly well, unless you want to get serious about the mythology. If so, I'm there for you. Modern rulers, with distance from the sun:

Sagittarius: Jupiter
Capricorn: Saturn
Aquarius: Uranus
Pisces: Neptune
Aries: Eris

Certainly there are other schemes for organizing signs and rulers, like antiscia or polarity pairs. Frankly, the theogony (genealogy) approach doesn't work entirely for the classical planets. Jupiter fathered Mars, Venus, and Diana (moon.) He is generally given as the father of Mercury, but in the Orphic hymns, Dionysius fathered Mercury. Helios (Phoebus) was a Titan, whose functions were only later assimilated to Apollo.

My feeling is that if astrologers wish to cite mythology, we need to get serious about it, and draw our information from the original sources interpreted by classics scholars-- not as-told-to secondary sources. Again www.theoi.com is a goldmine of Greek mythology, with citations to all of the ancient authors.

Unfortunately the Ceres myth is generally told poorly by astrologers. Think of the Mediterranean region where it originated. Proserpina (Persephone) disappears during the summer droughts. The ancients thought the Demeter/Ceres lore originated in Sicily, to give you some idea. The idea of the death of Persephone due to the cold winter is a later gloss from more northerly temperate climates, to cite one example.

Just reading the main Demeter myth (and there are multiple versions) indicate that her grief brought about a severe drought, not "endless winter."

I think it's too soon to dismiss the trans-Neptunian dwarf planets. Sedna happens to be one of my favorites but I wouldn't assign her a modern sign rulership anytime soon.

Eris, on the other hand, fits Aries really well.

waybread

here's some of my reason for having difficulty with your statement - "Edgar Cayce is not a credible source." aside from my impression of it coming across in some sort of authoritative and dismissive manner of all of cayces insights, it reflects a certain type of rigid attitude towards gaining any insight from others outside your preordained credible source viewpoint.. what i wonder about is how it reflects in your involvement in astrology..

think of how science, astronomy and so much of the intellectual world are automatically dismissive of astrology with such statements as - it is not a credible source....

as far as i know astrologers get it wrong as often as they get it right but it is not a reason to automatically say - "astrology is not a credible source"... thus my issue with you is over what i sense is a type of thinking that has no place in research and the desire to learn from others... we all pick and choose what we will or won't spend time investigating, but i'd prefer to not be dismissive of topics i don't know a lot or anything about - which is how i see much of the world being in its attitude towards astrology...

i appreciate your comments on eris and pointing out various ideas of value, but i was indeed thrown off - as i have been in the past - over what i sense is a type of rigidity in your thinking that takes away from the otherwise valuable input you do provide... maybe i have misread or read too much into your comment here..

cheers james

waybread wrote:Michael, I do sometimes wonder if the dwarf planets (minus Pluto) function more as asteroids than as planets, notably Ceres.

Well yeah, Encyclopedia Britannica still considers Ceres an asteroid, besides being a dwarf planet. She is clearly a member of the asteroid belt, anyway. I am not sure how relevant the introduction of the new category of dwarf planets by the IAU is to astrology. I don't see anything distinguishing Ceres' type of influence from the kind of effects caused, for example, by Pallas, Vesta and Juno.

The trans-Neptunians other than Pluto have really been studied too little to make any firm pronouncement.

I agree that we should tread carefully here.

But Eris is virtually the same size as Pluto. Eris has more density than Pluto. It has a moon. Its orbit sometimes loops in between the orbits of Neptune and Pluto, so sometimes it is closer to the sun than Pluto; and sometimes nearly as close as Neptune.

However, Pluto is still the biggest and, more importantly, the brightest TNO, as seen from Earth. He was therefore found already in 1930, much earlier than the other bodies in that region of the solar system. His discovery coincided with such significantly Plutonian developments like the Great Depression in USA, the breaking apart of the Grand Coalition in Germany (leading to the rise of the Nazis to power), the founding of The American Interplanetary Society (set up to promote the idea of interplanetary exploration) and the invention of the cyclotrone (atom smasher) in the following year, a machine that makes possible high-energy physics, including, in the next decade, the atomic bomb - and last but not least the market introduction of sliced bread fell into the year of Pluto's discovery too!

By comparison, Eris was found along with several comparable big TNOs in the early 2000's. Not to say that this wasn't a significant time as well, but the discovery of Eris doesn't seem to stand out in any particular way.

Pluto is not a good match with Aries, which has symbolized new beginnings ever since the Babylonians adopted their spring equinox-based calendar.

Pluto is associated both with endings and new beginnings. I elaborated on that already in my last reply to you.

Are you familiar with Henry Seltzer's book on Eris, The Tenth Planet? Highly recommended. He really did his homework, unlike a lot of the evolutionary astrology wishful thinking.

No, I haven't read that book yet, but I will look into it when I decide to make a detailed study of the TNOs. Thanks for the hint!

Eris works fairly well, unless you want to get serious about the mythology. If so, I'm there for you. Modern rulers, with distance from the sun:

Sagittarius: Jupiter
Capricorn: Saturn
Aquarius: Uranus
Pisces: Neptune
Aries: Eris

You still haven't replied to my question where you are going to put Mars.

Certainly there are other schemes for organizing signs and rulers, like antiscia or polarity pairs. Frankly, the theogony (genealogy) approach doesn't work entirely for the classical planets. Jupiter fathered Mars, Venus, and Diana (moon.) He is generally given as the father of Mercury, but in the Orphic hymns, Dionysius fathered Mercury. Helios (Phoebus) was a Titan, whose functions were only later assimilated to Apollo.

My feeling is that if astrologers wish to cite mythology, we need to get serious about it, and draw our information from the original sources interpreted by classics scholars-- not as-told-to secondary sources. Again www.theoi.com is a goldmine of Greek mythology, with citations to all of the ancient authors.

Unfortunately the Ceres myth is generally told poorly by astrologers. Think of the Mediterranean region where it originated. Proserpina (Persephone) disappears during the summer droughts. The ancients thought the Demeter/Ceres lore originated in Sicily, to give you some idea. The idea of the death of Persephone due to the cold winter is a later gloss from more northerly temperate climates, to cite one example.

Just reading the main Demeter myth (and there are multiple versions) indicate that her grief brought about a severe drought, not "endless winter."

Okay, let's get academic. ???????????????

The association of the Persephone myth with the seasonal change from cold to warm was the general understanding already in antiquity. Please take a look at: Der Raub der Proserpina Studien zur Ikonographie und Ikonologie eines Ovidmythos von der Antike bis zur frühen Neuzeit, Inaugural-Dissertation zur Erlangung des Doktorgrades der Philosophischen Fakultät der Westfälischen Wilhelms-Universität zu Münster (Westf.) vorgelegt von Christiane Brehm aus Unna 1996, p. 265 f. (sorry about the partially crappy Google translation, I don't have the time to brush it up; I nevertheless think it's easy enough to understand overall, though):

1.2. Naturallegorische Deutung Proserpina wurde seit der Antike als Personifikation des Samenkorns verstanden, Pluto als die der Erde, in die der Samen eingehen muß, um nach Monaten des Reifens als vielfache Frucht wieder aus ihr hervorzubrechen.1314 In diesem Kontext ist der Richtspruch Jupiters, Proserpina solle eine Jahreshälfte über und eine unter der Erde verbringen, gleichzusetzen mit dem Einsetzen des Vegetationszyklus, dem Wechsel der Jahreszeiten und der Wiedergeburt. In der Antike war der Raub der Proserpina durch den Gott der Unterwelt ein Bild für den "Griff des Todes nach dem Menschen"1315, der zwar zunächst als unausweichlich galt, durch die Auferstehung - verkörpert durch die Anabasis Proserpinas - aber überwunden werden konnte und somit dem Motiv den Schrecken nahm. Die Horen, die die Proserpina-Raubszene der Reliefs häufig rahmen (vgl. Kat. 32)1316, personifizieren die Jahreszeiten, den ewigen Wechsel zwischen Leben und Tod, Wachstums- und Ruhephasen der Natur. Proserpina kann auch dem Mond gleichgesetzt werden.1317

Translation:

1.2. Natural allegoric interpretation Proserpine has been understood since antiquity as the personification of the seed, Pluto as that of the earth, into which the seed must enter in order to emerge from it again after months of ripening as a multiple fruit. 1314 In this context, Jupiter's judgment, Proserpina should spend half of the year above and one below ground, equating with the beginning of the vegetation cycle, the change of seasons and rebirth. In antiquity, the robbery of Proserpine by the god of the underworld was an image of the "grasp of death for man" in 1315, which was initially considered inevitable, but could be overcome through the resurrection - embodied by the anabasis of Proserpina - and thus took away the horror of the motive. The hears that often frame the scene of the robbery of Proserpine in the reliefs (cf. cat. 32) 1316 personify the seasons, the eternal alternation between life and death, phases of growth and rest in nature. Proserpine can also be equated with the moon. 1317

Pay special attention to footnote 1314:

Fussnote 1314 GIRALDI 6: "foecunditatem seminum: quae cum defuisset quodam tempore, eademque sterilitate terra moereret", "Proserpina, inquit, seminum virtus est: Pluto vero sol, qui tempore hyemis remotiorem mundi partem perlustrat"; COMES S. 248: "vim omnem terrena scribit esse Plutonis patri dedicatam: qui & Pluto & Dis ideo vocatus fuit, quod omnia & recidant in terras, & oriantur e terris", "quam frugu semen esse volut, absconditamque; queri a matre fingut", "Haec latet sex menses apud maritu, dum sol in signis Australibus a semente fuerit, donec ad maturitatem fruges perducens ad Borealia paulatim redierit", "tunc enim non amplius semen est sub terra per sex menses, sed in horreis agricolarum, & apud superos in locis editioribus"; CARTARI S. 277 f.: "la rapita Proserpina, che mostra la virtù del seme, perche questo allhora stà nel ventre della terra."; VAN MANDER WTLEGGINGH fol 46 r: "Van den voorgaende Ougst heest men het saep-Zaet: en Ceres is het kooren", "Hy rooft dan Proserpinam, dar is/ het graen en de goederen der aerden", "t'zaedt in d'aerde verborghen wesende/ is Proserpina in der Helle", "...vier Maenden worzelt graen in der aerde/ daerom hadde Pluto vier Peerden", "...t'zaedt in sommighe Landen is ses Maenden onder d'aerde eer het aaren laet sien/ en het blijft ses Maenden op d'aerde by zijn Moeder/ eer't van den Boeren in't saeyen weder daer onder moet."

Translation:

Footnote 1314 Giraldi 6: "The fruitfulness of the seeds: which, when it had been missing for a certain time, and the earth mourned by the same sterility," "Proserpina, he says, is the power of seeds; and Pluto the sun, who in winter's time surveys the more remote part of the world"; Count S. 248: "He writes that all the earthly power was dedicated to Pluto's father; who was therefore called Pluto and the Gods, because all things fall back to the earth and spring up from the earth" "This lies six months before the time when the sun rises from the seed in the southern signs, until it gradually returns to the mature crops in the Northern Territory." above in elevated places; CARTARI S. 277 f .: "the kidnapped Proserpina, who shows the virtue of the seed, because this is then in the womb of the earth."; VAN MANDER WTLEGGINGH fol 46 r: "From the foregoing Ougst one hath the saep-Zaet: and Ceres is the corn", "He then robs Proserpinam, there is/ the grain and the goods of the aerden", "t'zaedt in d'aerde hid wesende/ is Proserpina in der Helle", "...vier Maenden worzelt graen in der aerde/ that's why Pluto had four pears", "...t'zaedt in some countries ses Maenden is under d'aerde before it has to be seen / and it remains ses Maenden on d'aerde by its mother / before van den Boeren has to go down again."

Back to your post:

I think it's too soon to dismiss the trans-Neptunian dwarf planets. Sedna happens to be one of my favorites but I wouldn't assign her a modern sign rulership anytime soon.

Eris, on the other hand, fits Aries really well.

She may indeed be interrelated with this sign, especially if we see Pluto as its actual ruler - given that they both belong to the same part of the solar system.

Talking about Edgar Cayce (whom I have studied quite a lot in years gone by), I do find ideas of value in him. That doesn't imply that I would necessarily subscribe to every single one of his statements.

No psychic is 100% accurate. More importantly, I believe that each piece of information should be evaluated in and of itself, no matter if or by whom it was "channeled". Many writers and other artists experience some kind of transpersonal inspiration, and whether or not the "channeling" label is put on it doesn't either add to or take away from the value of their creation per se.

Moreover, astrology isn't exactly rocket science. We each go with the ideas and concepts we resonate with, and that's fine. If Therese wishes to base some of her astrology on Cayce, why shouldn't she? I, for one, try to keep an open mind, willing to see what (if anything) I can learn from any of the other posters here.

Not least, even "exact sciences" often need to revise their conclusions eventually. It is impossible to say what parts of our generally accepted knowledge of today will still be accepted as truth tomorrow. The best of scientists are well aware of this fact and avoid making sweeping assumptions as to the validity or invalidity of a particular type of information a priori.

That's all I have to say on this topic - probably.

Michael