jason!

i thought he might have a secretary, and now i know you are it!!!

-----------
dima

that was funny what you said about the trads scoffing at what the moderns follow.. thanks for that.. i am sure you know the nodes have been used quite extensively in trad astrology too, but either way it was funny what you said!!

james_m wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 6:14 pm jason!

i thought he might have a secretary, and now i know you are it!!!

:::salutes affirmatively:::

Martin Gansten wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 5:02 pm No, the key issue is that extremely few astrologers in the 20th century, especially its latter half, even tried to work with primary directions (most would have been hard put even to explain what they were), and even fewer with profections; and that even those who did want to use them didn't know how, precisely because the tradition of which they formed an integral part had been broken. Which is more or less where we came in.

You concede a point: some astrologers did utilize primary directions (PDs) and profections. However, this acknowledgement paints an incomplete picture. To claim that the tradition was entirely broken is simply inaccurate. The latter half of the 20th century saw a resurgence, not just a revival, of these techniques. Lone researchers, scholarly efforts, surviving texts, educational initiatives, and even technology fueled their reintegration into modern astrological practice.

Are you familiar with the expression One swallow does not a summer make? I'm not sure what makes you so unwilling (or unable?) to see the big picture, but I think most people who are acquainted with astrological literature from the last three or four centuries are aware that there was indeed a definite break in the tradition, resulting in major changes both technical and philosophical. As for primary directions, I would definitely question whether some of the lone swallows calculating semi-arcs or position circles in the mid-20th century were, in any meaningful sense, working with the same technique as Ptolemy, al-Qabīṣī, or Lilly.

That's the last from me on this thread, unless some actual new information should emerge.

Martin Gansten wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 6:32 am Are you familiar with the expression One swallow does not a summer make? I'm not sure what makes you so unwilling (or unable?) to see the big picture, but I think most people who are acquainted with astrological literature from the last three or four centuries are aware that there was indeed a definite break in the tradition, resulting in major changes both technical and philosophical. As for primary directions, I would definitely question whether some of the lone swallows calculating semi-arcs or position circles in the mid-20th century were, in any meaningful sense, working with the same technique as Ptolemy, al-Qabīṣī, or Lilly.

That's the last from me on this thread, unless some actual new information should emerge.

I appreciate the reference to the saying "One swallow does not a summer make," as it underscores the need for multiple, consistent pieces of evidence to establish a trend. However, your interpretation of this expression seems to misrepresent the broader context of our discussion on astrological traditions and techniques.

Firstly, it is essential to acknowledge the historical evolution of astrology. Yes, there have been significant changes in both technical and philosophical aspects over the centuries. This is true for almost any discipline that has endured through various cultural, scientific, and intellectual shifts. The break you refer to is a part of this natural evolution, and it doesn't negate the continuity or the foundational principles laid by earlier astrologers like Ptolemy, al-Qabīṣī, or Lilly. In fact, understanding these changes enriches our comprehension of how astrological techniques have adapted and survived through time.

Primary directions retain a core conceptual framework. The astrologers of the mid-20th century, whom you dismiss as "lone swallows," were part of a broader effort to refine and adapt ancient techniques to contemporary understandings. To claim they are not working "in any meaningful sense" with the same technique is to overlook the fundamental principles they maintained while striving for greater precision and relevance in their work.

Moreover, dismissing these advancements as inconsequential or disconnected from historical practices does a disservice to the progress and scholarship within the astrological community. It ignores the contributions of dedicated individuals who sought to bridge the past and present, ensuring that astrological knowledge remains dynamic and applicable.

Your reluctance to continue this discussion unless "actual new information" emerges suggests a myopic and closed-minded approach to the complexities and nuances of astrological history. True scholarship thrives on continuous dialogue, the re-evaluation of established beliefs, and the willingness to incorporate new insights. By engaging with differing perspectives and examining the evolution of techniques like primary directions, we honor the legacy of astrologers in the past while fostering a more robust and informed practice for the future.

While the saying about swallows and summer serves as a caution against hasty conclusions, it should not be used to dismiss the valid, cumulative contributions of dedicated practitioners. Recognizing the continuum of astrological tradition, despite its shifts and developments, is crucial for a comprehensive understanding of its rich and intricate history.

James:
Just trying to connect people, guess it's a tad unneccesary in some cases, LOL.
No fanclub was mentioned, mind you

I'm always happy to meet fellow Israeli astrologers, the traditional astrology community here is rather small. I can count names on one hand, maybe two.

It's funny how this thread split into two: Martin and co., and all the rest.
I've great respect towards Martin, but am a bit wary when conversing with him, as I have to make sure every word and sentence is accurate
That academic pedigree...

Oh, we have an Israeli here, that's nice. I used to live in Jerusalem (1985) in rehov haneviim for quite a year and for a short time in Mitzpe Ramon, but the day I arrived in the Negev we had snow, the first time in 25 years, people said, that is a real great impression, snow in the desert. Welcome haver

Hi, I just saw this thread. Pop into the forum every few months. In the 4th edition of A Rectification Manual: The American Presidency (1st edition reviewed by Tom Callanan on this site) I sketched out the larger L1 periods for American Presidents with some L2 periods angular from the Lot of Fortune. You can judge yourself. I also include a side by side comparison with Firdaria, focusing on those major and minor periods ruled by the Victor of the Horoscope. For American Presidents, I found ZR and Firdaria both effective in addition to solar arc and primary directions. In that book I also include a crade to grave example of Directing through the Bounds (Abu Ma'shar) for Teddy Roosevelt. In my day-to-day active practice, I find ZR very valuable for for natal and financial astrology applications. That said, one can get alot out of profections and Firdaria for natal readings not to mention primary directions. I am not a member of a camp which favors one technique over another. I use them all because I have the time to focus on a handful of horoscopes. I am skeptical of technique partisans who claim the superiority of a single technique.

dima

thanks.... i appreciate your motivation and i share it too! i was once a part of an astrological group in victoria b.c., but it was relatively short lived for some external reasons and my life going in a different direction.. i enjoyed the camraderie with others in person, interacting. i would be happy to find some people in the local area to share astrology with too, but canada is a huge country.. perhaps it's a reflection of the world today that all of my astrological connections today are on the internet.. you're lucky if you get to connect in person with other astrologers... this hasn't happened for me in over 30 years... if i lived in a larger community it would be easier and it would be a rewarding experience, i am sure...

thanks for your insights with regard to corresponding with martin.. that makes a lot of sense and i am very far removed from that realm which must be very obvious!

Dr H. hi,

Very interesting.
I use the same approach. Giving a chance to various traditional techniques, and after a while formulazing opinions and ways of using them.

Any chance you could provide a link to your American presidents research, using ZR?
Your site is great, but for me it's sometimes comfusing to navigate in
I'm a bit surprised that you get such good results with Firdaria. My experience informs me Firdaria can be somewhat general and non specific, at times.

You also got me wondering, how does one uses ZR for financial astrology?! Natal, I get it, but financial?

Dima

ZR applied to American Presidents is in the current 4th edition of A Rectification Manual: The American Presidency available from Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Rectification-Ma ... C76&sr=8-1

As to Firdaria, here is one way to consider it: (1) compute the victor of the horoscope (2) compare a complete life chronology to Firdaria major and minor periods (3) assess what are the key moments of an individual's life, most likely but not always career and profession (4) see how many of those events occur when the victor is the major or minor Fidaria ruler (5) in a counterfactual, now eliminate all life events from the chronology which occur when the victor is either major or minor Firdaria period ruler (6) is there anything left in the chronology worth discussing or notable in the person's life?

Can't comment on financial astrology. under a NDA (non disclosure agreement)

HAGO

Oh, it's a book on Amazon, haven't realized.

Very interesting method, with the Firdaria.
"compute the victor of the horoscope":
Do you mean calculating the almuten of the ASC in the chart; highest scored planet according to essential dignity for the ASC degre?