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37 by Tom
But I'm not thinking like a lawyer now, just judging the chart. They don't always agree with what we present to the world.
This is a valid point on several levels. We can look at a chart and perhaps find valid things that are not generally known or in the public arena, and conversely I've seen astrologers "find" things in a chart that are manifestly untrue. For example two well known American astrologers were battling it out in the pages of The Mountain Astrologer Magazine over the significance of I think Pluto, found in some chart or other, in the meeting between Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby that supposedly took place prior to the Kennedy assassination. Small problem: there isn't a shred of evidence that they ever met. There are claims galore but they tend to fall into the category of one conspiracy author quoting another neither of which has any evidence of the meeting. Yet two astrologers pointing out this that and the other thing in the chart or charts as proof, mind you, that something that did not happen happened. There is also an all too common belief among mundane astrologers that the cosmos arrange themselves in order to validate their beliefs. We have to be careful.

It is one thing, as you have done, to look at Sam Sheppard's chart and come to the conclusion that he is guilty. At this point there doesn't seem to be any way to definitively prove that you are right or wrong. You argue what you see - fine. It is quite another to state, without proof, that guilt is incontrovertible and therefore what you see in the chart must be this or that, which is what the two astrologers cited above did without evidence. Faith is fine in religion; we need more in court.
With one blow she was knocked unconscious, without the chance to utter a word or scream, the only sound, the thud that would silence her forever, fierce enough to kill and yet not awake a sleeping child next door.
And this is what probably happened except that it does not fit the typical husband-wife fight scenario. I don't know if you are or ever have been married, but when married couples get into a good fight it doesn't begin with a blow to the head with a blunt instrument. It escalates. Sarcasm becomes anger, becomes verbal abuse. Voices get louder and louder. It usually doesn't get worse than that but when it does the physical abuse begins after all that - not before. Recall Sam Sheppard has no history of violent behavior.

Now if there were an intruder, he would likely subdue his victim first without saying a word. His rage would be held in check sufficiently to try keep from drawing attention to his actions. He probably would have made enough noise to at least wake Sam, which is what Sam claimed.

This scenario has problems, too. Serious problems. So the intruder decides to break into the house using a key (no forced entry), or perhaps the door was open, to do what? It would take a pretty brazen thief to do that, but it is not unheard of. Perhaps he thinks everyone will be asleep or maybe all the lights are off so he comes in goes upstairs and rapes and kills Marilyn. Did he say to himself earlier, I think this is a good day to go rape and kill Marylin Sheppard? Yes yes this is motive, but in this scenario we have opportunity and intent, and if the guy was caught red handed we wouldn't need motive, but this makes no sense without an outside perpetrator.

What makes even less sense is that no one woke up regardless of who did it. Marilyn fought for her life. She may have bitten her killer and drew blood (which could explain the small spot of blood on Sam's pants). But none of this is satisfying. The jury wasn't satisfied either so he was convicted of having an affair, and sentenced to life in prison.

As for Mars last conjunction to Saturn indicating death - I'm still alive. I haven't killed anyone either - never even made a plan, and Mars and Saturn are in my 12th (Leo). Better watch it. ;-)

Tom

38 by RC
Tom wrote:

As for Mars last conjunction to Saturn indicating death - I'm still alive. I haven't killed anyone either - never even made a plan, and Mars and Saturn are in my 12th (Leo). Better watch it. ;-)

Tom[/color]
How close is the Mars to Saturn? Llewellyn was talking of conjunctions. And it doesn't mean YOU will do the deed but that you may come into contact with such an action, for example witness it. It depends on how placed in the chart. I'll post that example later. Don't have the book nearby right now. But have seen it in any people who had that combo.

Getting back to facts of Sheppard case, some of the assumed *facts* should not be taken as firmly established. For example, his sleeping on that couch. How do we know he was sleeping when the people left? He may have been hoping they would leave and awake. We don't know for a fact he was asleep when any of this happened.

Of course I am aware that my feelings on the chart could be dead wrong. (excuse the pun) I would never acquit or convict anyone based on my astrological analysis (or anyone else's) if I were on a jury and were allowed to have a laptop with my astrology software in the jury room. I am not that confident in my abilities at understanding the planets. If I were, I'd be placing bets on today's football games! :lol:

RC

39 by Tom
How close is the Mars to Saturn?
Saturn 18 Leo; Mars 26 Leo; ASC 29 Leo. If we use the five-degree rule Mars is in the first. Now I just realized this situation may be different since both Mars and Saturn are retrograde. I looked at the ephemeris and it appears as though Mars last conjunction was with Saturn in Leo when both were direct. Mars passed Saturn then went Rx, but would not conjunct Saturn Again. When you find the reference, please give the edition. A to Z has been around a long time.
For example, his sleeping on that couch. How do we know he was sleeping when the people left?
It doesn't matter much. The visiting couple said he was asleep when they left. There is no reason to doubt it, as it makes no difference. He could have just as easily stayed awake after they left, said good bye waited for them to be long gone and then killed her. Marilyn was found in her night clothes and he never changed according to witnesses who saw him the night before. So for what ever reason, she got ready for bed and he didn't.

The purpose in mentioning his early sleep is to establish that there were no harsh words between them prior to the company leaving. If I recall this correctly The Sheppard's and another couple went to dinner at the home of a third, I think the home of the mayor and his wife. After the two couples left, they stopped at the Sheppard's for drinks. Sam went into another room to sleep. If he faked it to establish an alibi, it was a goofy one.

Here is another tidbit: students of the crime who think he did do it or was involved pose a conspiracy (ahhh what would life be without conspiracies?). They claim (without evidence) that Marylin was having an affair with the mayor and his wife came over and confronted Marylin (after she was in bed?) and killed her. Sam, being a good buddy of the mayor's helped cover up the crime to protect they mayor's wife. I find this preposterous, but (ahhh what would life be without "but?") it was noted that the mayor and his wife had a fire in their home fireplace that night. They said it was cold. Other's said they were burning bloody clothes. After all, who has a fire in the fireplace on the 4th of July weekend? Cleveland is not that far north.

All of this of course is pure conjecture, and admitedly fun to play with. I'm not much on conspiracies, particularly one that requires me to believe that Sam Sheppard would cover up the murder of the mother of his child and carrying another to protect his friend's wife. 'Oh she killed my wife? Sure I'll help protect her. What are friends for?"

Have a good one.

Tom

40 by RC
Tom wrote:
How close is the Mars to Saturn?
When you find the reference, please give the edition. A to Z has been around a long time.Tom[/color]
Hi Tom,

Any A-Z edition after 1972 should have same page. I have two of the reprints after 72 and both are same.
Page 589, "I once shocked a client, when after looking at his natal...."

Also of interest here would be page 393 on Mars in 12th. There was another section but haven't found it yet.


RC

41 by Tom
I have the 1981 edition and page 589 is in the index. Could you please give me a heading or section or chapter of your reference. If I recall 1972 was one of the better editions.

Just so you'll know, Llewellyn George was a student of John Hazelrigg who was a student of Luke Broughton. In other words he had a good pedigree. He was a tireless supporter of astrology, astrologers, and astrological organizations. Holden gives his dates as 1879 - 1951, and in the following line lists his date of death as July 11, 1954. The latter is probably correct, and the former simply a typo.

I hope you can narrow down the reference. A to Z is one of my favorite astrology books.

Tom

42 by RC
Tom wrote: I have the 1981 edition and page 589 is in the index. Could you please give me a heading or section or chapter of your reference. If I recall 1972 was one of the better editions.

Tom
I'm surprised at that. My book's table of contents starts at page 791. Its not big print so I wonder what they've left out of the later editions?

We are talking of A - Z Horoscope Maker and Delineator, A Textbook of Astrology?

The quote I'm speaking of is from what my book lists at top of each page heading

Part V. Additional Studies The subsection is:
The Fourth Trigon of Houses: Fourth - Eighth - Twelfth.

Looking in the table of contents, it is listed under "Trigons, Triplicity of Sign... and Trigonal description of the twelve houses" which starts at page 581 in my book, so about 8 pages after that section begins.

If your book doesn't have that section, let me know.

Tom wrote:
Just so you'll know, Llewellyn George was a student of John Hazelrigg who was a student of Luke Broughton. In other words he had a good pedigree.

Tom
Thanks. I didn't know that. I'll have to look for some of their work if I don't already have it. But as I had just told Deb the other day when looking for more on him, I am one of his biggest fans. I had PM'd her to ask if she knew of any books he'd written on horary since she seems to know everything that's out there ever written.

He has a bit on horary in this one so I know he did a lot of horary readings during his life but its just bits of it here and there in the book and I have been blown away by some of his analysis at times, both natal and horary.

RC

43 by Tom
We are talking of A - Z Horoscope Maker and Delineator, A Textbook of Astrology?
Yes, and we're obviously talking about two different editions of the same work. This book was first published in about 1910. Mine is dated 1981 revised; 13th edition 53rd printing. So it has been revised 13 times as of this date and printed a total of 53 times. You and I have different editions.

The section you cite is not in my text sorry to say, and I would imagine mine has little of the original. I vaguely recall being told that any edition after 1972 or so lacks much of what was good about the earlier editions. The best editions were published before the discovery of Pluto I'm told. I've looked through the most recent edition and was not impressed.

Thanks for looking it up for me. I do appreciate your efforts.

Tom

44 by RC
Hi Tom,

Maybe you could find an older copy in a used book store. Here's one of the paragraphs:

I once shocked a client, when after looking at his natal chart, I said, "You have suffered greatly through fear of imprisonment due to having shot and killed a man in a public house." He paled and admitted that it was so, happening in a saloon brawl but done in self defense. The Moon, ruler of the Twelfth, was in the First (fear of imprisonment; (Moon rules public places, also houses) located in Leo right between Mars and Saturn. Mars conjunction Saturn indicates violence. Mars rules firearms and shooting; Saturn rules death. Leo being masculine indicated that the victim was male. The client had the Sun in the ascendant sufficiently far enough away not to be afflicted by these planets, and the Sun being the "dispositor" of them all, was king in his own domain, consequently, he was never found out; i.e., it was never discovered who did the shooting. *

* A - Z, Horoscope Maker and Delineator, A Text Book of Astrology" by George Llewellyn, at page 589, Thirty-eighth Printing 1975.

RC

P.S. Did you have the part about Mars in the 12th? ...Danger of injury...scandal...treachery from enemies... grave trouble through impulse... liability to imprisonment.

45 by Tom
Did you have the part about Mars in the 12th? ...Danger of injury...scandal...treachery from enemies... grave trouble through impulse... liability to imprisonment.
Yes that is in the section of planets in houses. As for the delineation, I think that is a serious stretch.

Not too long after I began to study astrology I paid a professional astrologer for a reading. Mars and Saturn in my chart are 8 degrees apart, both retrograde and in Leo. Mars in Leo is no big deal, but Saturn is in detriment in Leo. The astrologer used words like "violent" and "brutal" to describe this "conjunction." Pluto is in the mix, too. I am neither brutal nor violent, and after I began to learn something I realized that literally millions of people were born under the influence of that Pluto - conjunction and the Mars - Saturn conjunction that I was born under, and last I heard there was no explosion of raging maniacs born at this time. If you doubt me, beware: Hillary Clinton is only three months older than I am and Al Gore one month younger. We all have this configuration (Mars-Saturn-Pluto). Hillary's conjunction is tighter than mine; Gore and I have very similar charts.

Tom

46 by RC
Tom wrote:
Yes that is in the section of planets in houses. As for the delineation, I think that is a serious stretch.
Tom
I referred to Mars in 12th as related to to Sam Sheppard, not you. He had it strong, in Scorpio.

- Most books give similiar readings for a Mars in 12th house.

What is amazing about Llewellyn's reading was the first part I quoted from the section on trigons re: the Mars Moon Saturn conjunction.

I've seen that play out in other people's charts as well. He didn't have the moon in conjunction but Saturn was last planet Mars had just passed over. Both in Scorpio.

RC

47 by Tom
I referred to Mars in 12th as related to to Sam Sheppard, not you. He had it strong, in Scorpio.
I know that. Of all my numerous faults, paranoia is not among them. Let me clarify what I now realize was as clear as mud, and the lack of clarity is entirely my fault.

When I referred to "the delineation" I meant the conclusion LLewellyn George drew from the chart he discussed. I think that conclusion was way too specific for the planetary positions cited. Saturn moves slowly, and Mars moves, on average about a half a degree per day, sometimes way slower than that. Therefore any separating natal conjunction between Mars and Saturn (even limiting it to those where Mars last conjunction was to Saturn) will be in effect for quite some time depending on the orbs the astrologer uses. The Moon would reach a position between them once per month for the duration of the conjunction. And the three planets would assume the cited house positions for a couple of hours or so for a day at any one location, but would be in the 12th house at some point on earth for many hours of a day. Therefore lots and lots of people were born with that configuration and they all didn't kill someone and live in fear of being discovered. It read a little too much like a Sherlock Holmes story for my taste.

Secondly Mars is not only firearms, but iron, knives, and other weapons. Firearms might be the most likely weapon in the 20th century, but not the only one Mars represents. So for this and other reasons I thought George might be showing off a bit, perhaps embellishing a genuine reading for marketing purposes. It isn't that the symbolism is wrong. It's just that he drew a seriously specific conclusion from symbolism that could be taken several ways. And then with nothing else to go on, describes a specific circumstance: "You have suffered greatly through fear of imprisonment due to having shot and killed a man in a public house."

From there I wondered about the idea that Mars - Saturn contacts always result in violence - even if we eliminate Capricorn (why not eliminate Aquarius on the same grounds?). I mentioned the reading I received many, many years ago as an example of how jumping to conclusions from a single aspect or placement is risky. Then I switched back to Lewellyn George. Not only do I meet Llewellyn George's criteria for violence doing or being done to, so do millions of others including two people who wish to become President of the US. It was sort of a reductio ad absurdum argument. It is of course silly to accuse any of us of violence and/or brutality when millions have the same configuration in their charts. Using George's rules he would say the same thing about me as he would about Hillary Clinton or Al Gore simply because we were all born about the same time. Yet it is not likely that all three of us, never mind the other millions that have the configuration, or even the hundreds that I went to school with that had this configuration, are all going to be the victim of perpetrator of violent acts. Some will be, but that's just the law of averages.

If Llewellyn George made that call precisely like he stated, good for him, but I think he was lucky. This does not mean I think he was a poor or incompetent astrologer. To the contrary - I love his book.

If you liked A to Z you might wish to visit Ballantrae reprints or Kessinger (both can be found online) and purchase a copy of Luke Broughton's The Elements of Astrology. You'll find more than a few similarities in organization and thinking. Broughton was a bit more conservative than Lewellyn George, but you can see the influence and Broughton's discussion of the charts of several well known personages is always interesting. Caveat! Broughton's construction of the chart of George Washington contains a huge error. He has the Moon opposite of its actual position - everyone makes mistakes.

Tom

48 by RC
I don't think that is fair to judge George so quickly. We didn't see the chart he had before him and so we can't judge him for jumping to "lucky" conclusions.

As for Hillary:

I have charted Hillary as 8:02 am which fits and describes her well. She is a lawyer and politician so her Mars and Saturn in 9th in Leo do describe her well.

Hillary Clinton does not have the configuration I am speaking of.

Her Mars and Saturn are not and did not conjoin and are not in direct conjunction in her chart. Pluto sits right in the middle between them. If it were a faster moving planet like the Moon or Mercury between Mars and SAturn, then we would be talking about that configuration but it isn?t. So this is not an example of the configuration I am talking about.

Digressing a bit..

Her chart is a very interesting to study however and there could still be some risks there from enemies working against her in secret shown by Mercury (8th & 10th ruler) in 12th and Squaring Mars and Saturn (no surprise there as every politician will have secret enemies working against them).

She has Mars in mutual reception with the Sun which by reception would put Sun in 8th and Mars in scorpio in 12th in conjunction with ruler of 12th Venus. That gives a powerful Mars there, but Venus, ruler of 12th is weak in Scorpio.

Her Sun and ASC in Scorpio with Mars in Leo in 9th and Jupiter in Sag in 1st: It is easy to see this native would almost have to be a lawyer and politician or politically minded.

And Mercury, 10th ruler (public speaking), in Scorpio squaring saturn shows her drive, energy and determination and ambition. Scorpio and Saturn shows her careful drive towards her goals. Her 10th ruler Mercury in 12th Scorpio squaring Saturn in Leo 9th: She guards here words carefully. She rarely slips up and often what appears to be a slip is in fact contrived. She is in fact critized for being too careful and scripted with her words/actions. But it is working for her.

RC
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