Kirk wrote:The lots, or parts, go back to the beginnings of western horoscopic astrology. Before the medieval Arabic astrologers the Hellenistic astrologers used lots extensively. So I've read.

Kirk wrote:But they just haven't resonated with me - I can't even get myself to use the Lot of Fortune. ["blah, blah"]

But that being said - I may change and start using the few essential lots in the future. I don't see much need to rush into it, though.

Tzadde wrote:

Kirk wrote:The lots, or parts, go back to the beginnings of western horoscopic astrology. Before the medieval Arabic astrologers the Hellenistic astrologers used lots extensively. So I've read.

That's true. Thanks for backing up what I have previously posted. So the Hellenistic astrologers would have disagreed with you, too... See, it's like 3 (Greeks, Arabs and me) versus 1 (you).

Kirk wrote:But they just haven't resonated with me - I can't even get myself to use the Lot of Fortune. ["blah, blah"]

But that being said - I may change and start using the few essential lots in the future. I don't see much need to rush into it, though.

Nobody urges you to use them, I think it is better if you don't use them at all. This way everyone feels good. You, me and the old ones.

Tzadde wrote:According to some sources, a planet is in Hayz when it accomplishes the following circumstances:
- the chart has the planet's sect: Sun, Saturn and Jupiter in day charts; Moon, Venus and Mars in night charts; Mercury changes its sect according to various occurrences;
- the planet is in the Sign according to its sect: all masculine (Air and Fire) are diurnal, all feminine (Water and Earth) are nocturnal;
- it is mandatory to be above the horizon.

The Part of Children is in 1 Aquarius (Asc + Saturn - Jupiter), so we can see a direct relationship of children's condition to this Jupiter-Saturn aspect. In Leo, it would be ruled by Sun, which is in a strange relationship with Jupiter (no aspect) and Saturn (out of orb, but in Sign aspect), therefore Winchell's children should be in a better condition than the Part would be in Aquarius...

Kirk wrote: You hear pretty often these days that the out of sect malefic is the one at highest risk of causing problems for the chart native. It seems to be one of those more recent rediscoveries in traditional astrology.

Well, I have to admit I've never been on firm ground with this 'quantity and quality' thing. When do factors determine how much strength and planet has and when do they determine the kind of strength it has ? for good or ill?

Maybe that's enough to say it can act, but to me this is a scared, unsure, confused, befuddled Jupiter. A high anxiety Jupiter. I really can't see it having much confidence to act. To me this Jupiter just sort of stands there and pees his pants. Such a Jupiter is going to do as Saturn says. But there could be things I'm missing.

Yukionna wrote:Which sources do you use Tsadde?
[...]
There's nothing in that quote that suggests that a planet has to be above the earth to be considered in its domain or Hayz.

To see the influence of sect we must look at 3 aspects:

1. If the chart is diurnal or nocturnal and what planets corresponds.
2. The sect of signs (signs can also be diurnal or nocturnal) and the planets that correspond.
3. The nature of placement. For example, a planet is placed diurnally when is above the horizon in the daytime or below at night.

If a planet is in accordance with all these 3 aspects then is in a very powerful position, named Hayz.

Building on the sect definition of the chart as diurnal or nocturnal, one must also consider each planet?s placement by hemisphere as defined by the Ascendant/Descendant axis - and also each planet?s placement by sign. The upper hemisphere in a diurnal chart (as defined by the Sun above the horizon) is diurnal, whereas the lower hemisphere is nocturnal. In a nocturnal chart (with the Sun below the horizon), the upper hemisphere is nocturnal and the lower hemisphere diurnal.

So, planets above the horizon in a diurnal chart are ?placed? diurnally, even if they may be nocturnal planets. Below the horizon, they are nocturnal by placement. For example, Saturn may be below the horizon - and so is a diurnal planet in a diurnal chart ?placed? nocturnally. This would interfere with Saturn?s expression a bit more than if Saturn were above the horizon in this chart. Conversely, the Moon in this chart might be above the horizon, and so it is a nocturnal planet in a diurnal chart ?placed? diurnally. This would further inhibit this particular Moon?s expression - already diminished by being out of sect.

Add to that you must also consider the sign each planet is in - with masculine signs (Aries, Gemini, Leo, Libra, Sagittarius, Aquarius) being diurnal, and feminine signs (Taurus, Cancer, Virgo, Scorpio, Capricorn, Pisces) being nocturnal. This colors each planet even further. So you have four considerations - the sect of the chart, the natural sect of the planet, the sect of the planet?s hemisphere (or house) placement and the sect of the planet?s sign placement. When all four sects agree, the planet is considered to be in hayz - a very positive, powerful condition. For example, the Sun in Aries in the 10th house (which naturally, is a daytime chart) is in hayz, because it?s a diurnal planet in a diurnal chart, placed in a diurnal house in a masculine, and therefore diurnal sign.

Conversely, the Moon in Scorpio in the 11th house would also be in hayz - but only if the native were born at night, with the Sun below the horizon.

There are 2 more ways that a planet can be in sect other than it just being a diurnal or nocturnal birth chart. A planet can be in it's own light or it can be in it's own similitude. If a diurnal chart then Saturn and Jupiter are in it's own light if they are above the horizon with the Sun, and the Moon, Venus and Mars are also as long as they are below the horizon. If a nocturnal chart then the Moon, Venus and Mars should be above the horizon and Jupiter and Saturn should be below in order to say they are in their own light.

Yukionna wrote:The other concept, which Paul pointed out in a discussion somewhere, is the one, where the ruling light determines which planets are in sect. Here, as it is a night chart, Moon is ruling light, so all the feminine planets become somewhat stronger. Saturn as a day planet is not among those, so can be called out of sect.

Kirk wrote: It looks like it's the out of sect Saturn reflecting the problem. But what about the fact that Jupiter disposits Saturn? Might that mean that instead of the usual assistance Jupiter would be expected to give to Saturn this very weakened Jupiter is only able to give, to hand over, the children themselves to superior Saturn, the planet traditionally associated with death? Would that make Jupiter actually malefic or be merely an indication of its tragic powerlessness?

I don't know about scared, but it should act in an untypical Jupiter way. Selfconfidence turns into arrogance, expansion into bullying, religion into bigotry etc. Kind of corrupted. It is not the significator of Winchell himself as it isn't part of the AC, but it aspects the AC, therefore modifying it, and I guess that it strongly and negatively describes his professional life.

I agree with what you say about Mars and the 9th.. I didn't know 9 was the house of publishing, that really fits in well.

it is mandatory to be above the horizon.