Kirk, I don't know what formula you are using. I use Asc. + Part of Fortune [Day Formula...and I allways use the Day formula as it has proven itself to me] + Neptune...thus 18* Pisces 18'.
You should read this book by Dave Mastry, "A Template For The Time. The Astrological Birth Chart Of Jesus" it's revolutionary and it's catching on. It demostrates that the Sabians are symbolically representative of the Parts.
As far as Obama goes I wished and hoped he could possibly be the answer to the United States problems but now I'm in great doubt.
I have been a sudent and practioner of Astrology and Arabic Parts for over 25 years and have done hundreds of personal charts and over a hundred composite charts for couples and the proof is in the pudding!

Tom,

I'm wondering if you're aware that Psychologists, and those who compile dictionaries, tend to see Temperament as a facet of Personality.

Type is similar in that it describes a manner of orientating yourself, functioning or interacting with your internal and external environments but not the totality of who you are which is your individual personality. You can have the same temperament/type as someone else (according to astrologers or the MBTI) but not the same personality/psyche/mind/brain (chart) so it's 'deeper' by definition.

I suspect this is one of the reasons why the term 'temperament' has lost currency amongst astrologers today as it prevents a meaningful engagement with the outside world based on shared semantics.

Technically now temperament refers to dispositions/traits whereas personality refers to behavourial outcomes.

unique_astrology wrote:
I think the first chart shown (McCains progressed demi-solar demi-anlunar) is an accurate portrayal of the emotions of someone being freed after nearly 5 1/2 years of imprisonment and torture showing Saturn and Neptune (possible fear that something might go wrong) across one axis while showing the Moon and Jupiter (emotional happiness) across another. The speculum for the chart follows it.

Bob

Hi Bob: I will see your charts and raise you 2!

You can't deny this evidence!

McCain's Natal with Secondary progressed to his release date: March 15, 1973

First chart using your 6:25 PM time:
McCain's 6:25 PM Natal and Secondary Progressed chart for his release:
Looking at that chart, one would expect that McCain would be getting into trouble rather than getting out of it~!
His Sun has entered his 8th house and Mars is conjoining his 7th, opposing his ASC while Neptune is in his 7th as well opposing Saturn in his 1st. And his progressed moon would be in his 4th opposing Ruler of his MC, Jupiter in his 10th career. This is a bad aspect! When in fact, after he came home he received accolades and his career in politics soon took off. That is not described in this chart.

Now look at the 9 AM chart:
McCain's natal using the 9 AM time furnished by his mother and his secondary progressed chart:

His sun is leaving imprisonment, 12th and conjoining his ASC. (I've seen this exact aspect in other prisoner charts who were being released). The Sun can now be read in his 1st house. Note too, that on that date, it is 5 1/2 degrees from the natal degree, showing 5 & 1/2 years that it could be read in the 12th.

Now too, note the Moon in this chart. It is in nearly an exact trine to the progressed Sun! The moon is his career and fame and the Sun rules his hopes and wishes. Don't you think it was then his fondest wish to be released and return home? And this describes it and describes the accolades and career aspirations which soon were realized when he ran for Congress and won.

There is simply no comparison in the two charts. His mother gave the 9 AM time and I think she would know. RC

Hi Billy,

I'm wondering if you're aware that Psychologists, and those who compile dictionaries, tend to see Temperament as a facet of Personality.

I'm wondering if you're aware of the generally low esteem I hold most psychologists? I don't know you and you probably don't know me, but for the record, I'm a traditional astrologer, not a modern "psychological" type and when I made that statement I was differentiating the astrological meaning of the word "temperament (the older writers actually use the word "temperature")" and the general idea among modern astrologers that personality is everything. What could possibly be more important than ME? But this is the Nativities and General Astrology Forum not the Traditional so I'll explain my point a little more. Keep in mind: I'm discussing astrology and I don't care what the psychologists have to say about astrology.

General George S. Patton Jr, Old Blood and Guts, famous during WWII as America's best field general and made even more famous by George C. Scott's accurate portrayal in the movie Patton in 1970 that is generally considered one of the finest performances in motion picture history. Patton's personality, i.e. that which we see easily, is highly choleric. It is pure fire. Blood and Guts (he hated that nickname) is choleric, turning your army around and marching through a snowstorm for 48 hours and then marching directly into combat is choleric. Patton's temperament is melancholic sanguine (if memory serves). The Blood and Guts was an act that he actually rehearsed. It was not all that natural to him, although Mars on the 4th was his significator of the manners so it was an easy act.

John McEnroe, superbrat whose temper tantrums on the tennis court ranged from amusing to ugly and whose temperament was described on the sports pages as "volitile" was sanguine.

Ted Bundy one of America's most prolific serial killers had this nice sanguine personality that enabled him to charm young women in order to kill them. He was choleric.

Janis Joplin, who sang the blues and who sang songs that evoked Saturn everywhere (Ball and Chain comes to mind), whose problems with depression were well known was phlegmatic.

I'm sure you see the point. Temperament is the most basic part of the individual. We do not necessarily see it easily, but sometimes we do. Psychologically it probably is part of the personality, but I chose to differentiate it so that astrologers don't look at McEnroe prejudge him to be choleric and when they find out he is sanguine, abandon the technique.

The technique has real value if we are trying to figure out the individual. For example if we determine that the native has roughly equal amounts of choler and phlegm, and we realize just how far apart those temperaments are, then we understand that there might be a good deal of inner turmoil going on. If we see the chart of a person who is profoundly melancholic, then we might see the merit in that person joining a cloistered religious order. There is enormous potential here and it should be kept out of the hands of the psychologists lest they use it as one more hammer to drive the native into the "appropriate" pigeonhole.

Tom

I also hold psychologists in low esteem compared to astrological personality analysis. Rudhyars book "The Astrology of Personality" is about the most profound book on this subject I've ever read. It was also voted one of the "Greatest 100 books of the 20th century" by the New York Times a few years ago.
My astrologer friend, Dave Mastry and myself have both said "Give me a psychologists birth chart and I'll tell you more about that person in 1 hours analysis than that psychologist could tell you about me allowing them 5 years of psychological study of myself."

On the assessment of Barak Obama's temperament I wrote:

Pretty balanced with melancholy slightly dominating.

I then decided to flip through Culpeper's book on decumbiture and found something of interest under "Signs of a Melancholy Cholerick Man. Using Frawley's method Obama is somewhat melancholic, but it is close as to whether his second temperament is choleric or sanguine. After reading what Culpeper wrote, I think melancholic/choleric fits better:

Melancholy Cholerick men are tall of stature, by reason that natural heat is feeble, and thereby many fumosities are ingendered, but they are little and slender of body, because of drynesse, therefore their skin is rough and hard and cold in touching, they have but very little hair on their bodies and are long without beards, by means of cold which stopeth the Pores, and suffereth not the matter whereof hair is ingendered to come forth: Also they have much superfluity in the nose; their color is pale showed with little nigritude or darknesse. And concerning their conditions, they arre gentle, given to sobriety, solitary, studious, doubtful, avaricious, shamefac't , timerous, stubborn, fretful, pensive, constant, and true in action, with a deep surmise, and slow wit, with obliviousness; their hair is brown and thin, their digestion feeble, and less then their appetite, the pulse little and slack, their urine subcitrine and thin, and they dream of falling from high places, fearful dreams and Sundry varieties.

Tom

Hi Tom,

You have forced me to get my dictionary out:
Personality:
'The sum total of the physical, mental, emotional, and social characteristics of an individual'.

Temperament:
'The combination of mental, physical, and emotional traits of a person; natural predisposition'.

Temperament is a manner or inclination to interact with your environment in a certain way, simply an aspect of your personality.

Greenbaum makes a good stab at it in her article available on this site:
?It might be easier to define temperament by what it is not. In the first place, it is not the same as personality, although personality can incorporate parts of someone's temperament in its expression. Personality is shaped by both internal and external factors, whereas temperament is entirely innate.

For example, how is the temperament aspect of a baby's personality revealed? The baby doesn?t choose it?s clothes, have access to language, etc so it?s capacity to communicate with the environment and express its personality are limited. So a baby is perceived early on as sanguine, choleric and so on

Hippocrates, Galen, Lilly, Kant and so on when discussing the humours were discussing psychology in developing ?Personality Theory?. If you are discussing the humours you are discussing Psychology, albeit very superficially.

With these charts and analysis guys, who would really when on November 4? Please quit on arguing about those charts, please just make a poll of what really is the explanation of the chart.

Well to make McCain's true chart even more complicated, apparently there is a new birth time: 11 AM
from:
" In one of his political ads in May 2008, he and his mom are "chatting" and she said 'I awakened and I told Jack, 'we're gonna' have this baby. This baby came, I think, about 11:00' "

http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/McCainJohn.htm

RC

Tom,

thanx for your analyses of McC & O

I was looking at the birth chart for U.S. (7/4/1776 5:10 PM Philly, PA) with its Solar Arc Directed chart for today, Nov. 4th - 08.

Inner Wheel: US Birth Chart
Middle Wheel: US Directed Chart
Outer Wheel: McCain's 9 AM natal chart

I then put in BO's chart - nothing much there...

And then McCain's chart (9 AM birth time). It's amazing!

Look at how his planets align with the U.S. chart:
And McCain's rising sign ruler, Venus which is in Mutual reception with Mercury in his natal chart, are both at the MC of the US chart. Mercury conjoins it's MC. In McCain's directed chart (which I posted earlier on this thread at page 1) also conjoins McCain's own MC.

And McCain's Jupiter (which is is Lord of his 1st in his Directed chart for this year) is conjunct the US natal chart.

Looks like this is more evidence of a McCain win. Though I know it sounds crazy delusional given what the polls and all the pundits are saying.

RC