This would work primarily with whole signs, or someone born at a latitude that's, say, within 30 degrees of the equator or thereabouts? It does make sense, but not with many time-or-space based house systems in very north or south latitudes - you'll often end up with a sixth house that can't 'see' the tenth house in those situations.

Or am I completely off-beam here?

janeg wrote:

jogi wrote: Quote:
And the 6th house (the native`s skills) [. . . ]
This sentence is very astonishing and sounds post-classically . . .
Is this really Robert Zoller?

I know a number of traditional astrologers argue that the 6th is not related to the native's work; however, this is not a modern invention. There are classical references indicating the same, specifically, in Paulus

"In this place {6th} the star providing one's work becomes active, as long as it has brought rays to the midheaven by degree, because the place is harmonious with the midheaven pivot by its position in a right triangle." Paulus, p46

And Firmicus, although he doesn't specifically mention work,
"sometimes the unfavourable influence is removed if a planet in this house {6th} is in favourable aspect to a planet in the 10th" p48, XIX

The same holds true for planets in the 2nd, if they are connected with the 10th in some manner they can have significations for 'what one does'.

johannes susato wrote:Hi Janeg,

nearly everthing you wrote so accurately meets exactly with my own understanding of Morin's teachings. So I suppose that all I don't agree with completely, is a part of Zoller's teachings. As I'm very interested in all concerning Morin, I would like to learn whether Zoller, whose book on Lots I read, is really leading beyond Morin.

Hi Johannes ... while I took Zoller's DMA course, anything I say in relation to his work is based on my own understanding of it; which could easily be other than what he meant. He was a student of Zoltan Mason's, who followed Morin, so I imagine what he teaches is Zoller/Mason/Morin.

When you write:

If Saturn rules the 2nd and is in the 7th, money would be spent or lost through marriage, partnerships or lawsuits. If he was in reasonably good state, possibly wealth through these same things but later in life.

is this your own understanding of Morin or more that of Zoller, as I assume, because Saturn as signficator for old age is only a by Morin not so preferred general signficator?

As I understand it, Saturn, in good state, can produce wealth but it will be realized through Saturn methods, one of which is delay which can be interrupted as 'delayed until later in the life'.

The key difference, I think, would be that in the first case, ruler of 2nd in 7th, the native would seek to acquire money through 7th house people or concerns whereas in the second case, ruler of the 7th in the 2nd, 7th house people or matters would come to affect their wealth without the native seeking them.

Even though your statement is in exact congruence with Morin's own statement according lords one and ten, which I quoted in this thread above, I would not really accept this as a strict principle with regard to the total of Morin's own explanations in Book XXI. of AG in reference to this theme.

I agree it's not a 'strict principle' since other factors in the chart affecting the 2nd and 7th must be considered but I think it is safe to say the native's finances will be affected by 7th house matters.

Do you think, Zoller would accept a more neutral definition of how the signification of houses ruled and kept by a planet is to combine, for example like this:

Accidentally the ruled houses are sometimes the 'causes', sometimes the anticipating or foregoing accidents of the accidents accidentally formed by the house and the universal cause and power of the dwelling and ruling planet in both their co-operation, and vice versa - but ever the meanings or significations of all involved houses are to be connected in a reasonable way with the planet and its status coelestis.

Johannes

Zoller does differentiate between 'outcomes' and 'realization' and talks about the 'flow' of energy between a sign and its ruler; he does say that they can combine subtly in different ways.

Hi Janeg

If Saturn rules the 2nd and is in the 7th, money would be spent or lost through marriage, partnerships or lawsuits. If he was in reasonably good state, possibly wealth through these same things but later in life.
If Saturn ruled the 7th and was in the 2nd, it would have a similar signification, money lost through marriage, lawsuits or partnerships. Or, if in good state, money gained through the same things but always with delays or difficulties of some sort.
The key difference, I think, would be that in the first case, ruler of 2nd in 7th, the native would seek to acquire money through 7th house people or concerns whereas in the second case, ruler of the 7th in the 2nd, 7th house people or matters would come to affect their wealth without the native seeking them.

This is the way I understood Morin ? and this is also the way that is logic for me. The explanations from Zoller about ?outcome? and ?realization? seem to become a little clearer to me but there is still lots of fog around them.

Olivia wrote:

For Jogi: I ran it in Alcabitius for you, and nothing changes house - they charts are near-identical, strangely - or perhaps not?

Thank you Olivia.
I`m quite sure that Zoller would count your Mars into the 3rd house (only 3? left).
According to this (and to the fact that Mars is the exaltation ruler of your 2nd) I would dare to try the following delineation: Your financial issues are also connected to your 3th house. Because Capricorn/Saturn and Mars mean more expenditures I would say that you also likely spend too much money on learning, information, books, magazines and your siblings (conflicts about money with them - if there are any) or short journeys. Citing Zoller, the 3rd could also be a source of your income ? communication, counselling, writing, teaching, bookstore, selling, post, train etc. ? but due to Mars`nature it is accompanied with impatience, conflicts and strife (I put all the derived house meanings aside here).

Because Mars is also the domicile ruler of your 4th and your 11th house there can be discussions, conflicts, difficulties and contention about money in association with your family and your friends.
But in the context of your family and your friends Mars also has other meanings. Maybe there has been or will be conflicts/discussions about money from family inheritance with your silblings (MA ruler of 2nd and 4th in the 3rd). Zoller, and I think also Morin say, that when we want to know more about the reason of the conflicts arising through Mars we should look to his dispositor which is Saturn in the 1st.
Am I near ore far away with these statements? I hope I did not mix up something this time

I never have had to look for work - people always come to me and ask me to work for them.

Now this could maybe explained through Saturn as exaltation ruler of your 10th house being in the 1st - the jobs come to you.

J?rgen

Jogi wrote:

Olivia wrote:For Jogi: I ran it in Alcabitius for you, and nothing changes house - they charts are near-identical, strangely - or perhaps not?

Thank you Olivia.
I`m quite sure that Zoller would count your Mars into the 3rd house (only 3? left).
According to this (and to the fact that Mars is the exaltation ruler of your 2nd) I would dare to try the following delineation: Your financial issues are also connected to your 3th house. Because Capricorn/Saturn and Mars mean more expenditures I would say that you also likely spend too much money on learning, information, books, magazines and your siblings (conflicts about money with them - if there are any) or short journeys. Citing Zoller, the 3rd could also be a source of your income ? communication, counselling, writing, teaching, bookstore, selling, post, train etc. ? but due to Mars`nature it is accompanied with impatience, conflicts and strife (I put all the derived house meanings aside here).

Because Mars is also the domicile ruler of your 4th and your 11th house there can be discussions, conflicts, difficulties and contention about money in association with your family and your friends.
But in the context of your family and your friends Mars also has other meanings. Maybe there has been or will be conflicts/discussions about money from family inheritance with your silblings (MA ruler of 2nd and 4th in the 3rd). Zoller, and I think also Morin say, that when we want to know more about the reason of the conflicts arising through Mars we should look to his dispositor which is Saturn in the 1st.
Am I near ore far away with these statements? I hope I did not mix up something this time

I never have had to look for work - people always come to me and ask me to work for them.

Now this could maybe explained through Saturn as exaltation ruler of your 10th house being in the 1st - the jobs come to you.

J?rgen

I've made most of my money with third house matters - writing in particular, mostly fiction and lyrics, and some with Venus-type occupations in the music and beauty industries. When it comes to education, I've been very lucky - most of it has come to me for free - not a lot of strife involved. So maybe Zoeller is more correct on this one? Books are definitely a weakness when it comes to spending, though!

There is no family and no siblings, so no inheritances. Though I have had too many friends of the 'we create our own reality' school who have told me that there was no reason I couldn't be making lots of money with eight broken bones or whatever the problem was at the time. That's caused some strife, especially as most of them are wealthy through inheritance. Which did lead to some pretty serious rifts - when things were at their worst I was having a hard time sympathising with people who had no physical problems and 'only half a million per year' to 'scrape by on'. Would that I could be so unfortunate!

@ Janeg

Zoller does differentiate between 'outcomes' and 'realization' and talks about the 'flow' of energy between a sign and its ruler; he does say that they can combine subtly in different ways.

How did you understand these terms?
Do you work with "outcome" and "realization" in practice?
Don`t you had the same feeling that these things are different from Morin`s teaching?

Sorry for so many questions at once. But unfortunately, due to Zoller`s illness, I have no tutorial with the DMA course and there are some things that are not absolutely clear to me (e.g. outcome and realization).

Thank you
J?rgen

I take as the difference between "what happens" and "how it happens".

Tom wrote:
We?re taken away from the overall picture to concentrate on one part of it.

Hi Jogi,

seeing you still searching and trying to distinguish between the spring and the lake in the the emantions of the planets, I sholuld like to remaind you, that in the art of science by all means it is the spring or the origin - that is the first authority teaching a subject - is crucial.

Can you quote any subtantial substantiation of Zoller for his thesis of the flow-direction? And he should give it, because he contradicts the source, Morin, who indeed claims the flow and cause of ruler and sign or ruled house, but also vice versa, that is in both directions! And in toto Morin makes it very clear, that all depends of the interaction of all cicumstances as planet and its position, ruled houses, status coelestis; and above all, that there is obviously no fixed mechanism .

Obviously you can't find a justification Zoller gives for his modification or constriction of the teachings of Morin. Then stick to Morin and relativice Zoller in this respect. If there is a justification, then let me know it, please.

Surely you remember the following points:

1. The planets in their essentiality are the universal causes of all accidents.
2. Their emanations are accidentally formed by the houses.
3. Nevertheless the planets remain the causes of all accidents.
4. Thus they connect the significations of the houses they rule with the significations of the houses they dwell in.
5. Accidentally the ruled houses are sometimes the 'causes', sometimes the anticipating or foregoing accidents of the accidents accidentally formed by the house and the universal cause and power of the dwelling and ruling planet in both their co-operation, and (I am really sorry, Jogi! ) vice versa - but ever the meanings or significations of all involved houses are to be connected in a reasonable way with the planet and its status coelestis.

I tried to report Morin as closely and correct as possible. Please correct this summarization by taking Morin as reference. And tell me please, whether, and when, how Zoller explains his contradiction to Morin, claiming that there is only one right direction of flowing powers. Zoller's doing so was stated by you consistently and by Janeg too, as you can read here again. Janeg:

Zoller does differentiate between 'outcomes' and 'realization' and talks about the 'flow' of energy between a sign and its ruler; he does say that they can combine subtly in different ways.

I'm very curious!

Johannes

Johannes, I think the problem is that Jogi is studying with Zoeller, so has to at least comprehend Zoeller's theories, whether he ends up using them fully in his own work or no. That's where we're running into the problem with 'realisation' and 'outcome'.

I haven't taken Zoeller's course, but I'm wondering if it could be called 'action' and 'outcome' instead?

Zoeller is a good astrologer, but his writing can be a little crazy-making, even if you're reasonably proficient in English. I think Janeg also took Zoeller's course, so she probably has a good idea of what he meant.

Jogi wrote:Zoller, and I think also Morin say, that when we want to know more about the reason of the conflicts arising through Mars we should look to his dispositor which is Saturn in the 1st.

Obviously Zoller doesn't quote Morin, so the river has to flow up to its spring . . .

The real [and I think really new(?)] teaching of Morin is, that the second or secondary dispositor tells the story! In Olivias chart that would be Jupiter in the tenth/eleventh him being dipositor of Saturn.

Olivia wrote:Johannes, I think the problem is that Jogi is studying with Zoeller, so has to at least comprehend Zoeller's theories, whether he ends up using them fully in his own work or no.

Olivia, you are surely right, studying Zoller is presumably a problem, if you want to understand Morin.

Jogi, as you have a problem to swim in the Zoller-River, why don't you go to the spring and reread the clearly speaking Morin? And after that Zoller may surely be a gain for you.

But before you decide, remember my questions above, please (posted today, 9:59 pm).

I've taken Zoller's course, and the way I understand is that it depends on the perspective.

For instance, let's say the ruler of the 7th is in the 2nd, and the ruler of the 2nd is in the 10th. We'll assume they're dignified and otherwise not afflicted. You can say marriage will result in good finances. If you are looking at finances, you can say good finances come about from marriage and career. Maybe the combination will affect things. Overall, there would be a connection between marriage, money, and career.

I think it's sort of like saying, "the cat was bitten by the dog while in yard", or "while in the yard, the dog bit the cat". Either way there is a yard, a dog, a cat, and a bite.

I think there is a possible problem here, of trying to fit astrology into our perceptions and desires, and not fit ourselves into it.

There will always be a great degree of ambiguity in astrology, and that is a good thing... all the "clear and cut" methods that I tried always fail. There is a degree of messiness in it.

Yes, Morin has his opinions as has Zoller, me, Steven, etc. But reading real charts usually show that reality is more complex than any simple answer.