(Hello everybody from another first-timer. )

Michael Jackson appears to be a tough nut to break. Irrespective of the fact the birthdates were mostly written in 1958, this one remains hidden, and Michael himself did nothing to uncover it neither to help others to solve this. Michael's quote as "after 10.30 pm" is the same as nothing. So, we're in fog yet.

There are some very different birth times quoted in this topic. So far, searching is limited between 23:53 and 23:29, with many confirmations. But, if I know MJ's story (childhood etc.) and I look at his chart, it simply does not fit to me ? father, hiding, money earning, trials and other issues.
There was a Scorpio rising mentioned on this forum and rejected immediately, as "impropriate". How come? Did Michael not ruin his appearance, face, skin color and all, as much as nobody did? If Scorpio means "general change", what is Michael's change other than general? I would not reject it so fast ?

I have developed my own solar return timing technique during last 18 years and went to check these birth times, using available bio information. With no available data for his residence before buying and moving to Neverland, Los Olivos, Ca, I limited to events after 1988. I was not satisfied with findings, which did not match my usual work and results with my clients; some events seem to happen a bit earlier, other a bit later. I found Michael's 23:29 chart a bit more fitting than 23:53 or 23:43.

After a pause I continued from zero, trying to make o profile. A nice game, pure joy. Where a father we are frightened of should be put in the horoscope? In the 8th. And Pluto. 7th in Cancer and Uranus inside both fit, too. 2nd marriage, a quick one (VE 0 UR) and is abroad. Neptunian outcome? Possible. Mars on the 4th cusp, squared ? aggressive father. Money? House rulers are placed in the 9th, not bad aspected, and Moon in the 2nd ("plenty of money running through these hands". According to Carol Rushman, 3 aspects of Mercury, 5th ruler, before leaving Leo = 3 children. The time is 17:35 in this case.
Then I got a phone call from a friend I discussed this matter before, and he said "Try with 12:12, I found this time repeatedly". Well, I was careful, but the finding took my breath.
Here is Scorpio rising ? again. No Scorpio look? How could it be? There is Mercury right on MC (question of seconds in time of birth!) and ASC-ruler is conjoined with Sun in 10th, and Sun is in mutual reception with Mercury, not mentioning full and very strong 10th, thus a rich portion of a Capricorn ? can we still expect a Scorpio look? This chart is full of hiding: Jupiter is "happy when away from other's eyes" etc. and Neptune in 12th is "living in his own world" ? is there anybody else who made "his own world" so much realistic? - And money? Saturn in 2nd is apparently misleading. I'd rather connect it with lack of self-confidence than with money itself, but anyway it is trined with Mercury 0 MC and 2nd ruler, Jupiter, is placed in 12th ? nobody in the world shared as much money for charity as MJ. This Jupiter is strong and is not badly aspected, so "plenty of money" is quite possible. - The last part of 9th is not favorable ? court issues, trials.
And I naturally tried to confirm this birth time with "my" solar returns, too. I tried several events and they fit, almost all and quite accurate. Incredible! 1.1.94, spring '93 Oprah show (and consequently success in career), later that year a crisis with drugs and hospital, '95/96 successes and stress-related hospital again, children and so on.

And, as there goes a saying in my country that "Every Gypsy praises his own horse", one would expect my claiming this BT is correct and my technique is the best. It's not. I spent a wonderful day with astrology being very aware that the outcome usually does not fit to all that what seems very obvious. I did not even try to confirm these "findings" with solar arcs, progressions, transits etc., as I had no time for it; I believe others will do that instead.

Sorry, if my English slips from time to time, it's not my first language. Have a good time!

Bern, Slovenia

Tom, you say that the angles in solar return are virtually identical to his natal. I cast his solar return for LA and get 17 cancer on ASC and his natal has 16 gemini on ASC-did I cast my SR chart wrong?

Double check your settings. For the birthplace of Gary IN, I get a 2008 SR with 17 Cancer and for LA I get 14 Gemini according to Janus software. If you're using Janus once you get to the "Cast a Return Chart" dialogue box, click on "options" then click on the the box next to: "Relocate Natal Chart." If you don't click that box, it will cast the chart for the birthplace.

Michael Jackson Solar Return
12:08:16 AM PDT + 7 hrs
Los Angeles, CA USA
118 W 14 34
34 N 08
14 Gemini 17 rises

If anyone isn't gentle with newbies and I miss it, please let me know. This is a place for learning. Post ANYTHING astrological. If you make mistakes, so what? We learn nothing by being right.

Tom

reply to Matt, kyle hope you don't mind...

Solar arc might be a useful way to equate the eastern dasa system to western astrology ? solar arc moves the entire chart forward in sync, like a logarithm. Dasas wash sequential planetary waves forward over the entire chart; the integrity of the ?fixed? planetary sequence pattern/s inherent within the dasa does not change.

In dasa system, the moon?s sidereal position at birth moment establishes the start point of a cyclical, repeating, planetary pattern.

Example: the moon begins (anchors itself sidereally) somewhere midway into Mars? 7 year cycle. Therefore this Mars cycle (dasa) continues for 3.5 more years, when the follow-on planetary cycle of the North Node dasa begins. Dasa cycles are large, overarching planetary ?umbrellas? under which the natal, transitting, and progressed planets play.

Progressions in western astrology, such as secondary,tertiary, and primary could conceivably equate to the sub cycles operating at levels below DASA.

Hope this helps.

Or maybe it's like firdar? With a planet being a lord for x number of years, and there are sub-lords co-ruling during shorter periods of time.

Explanation here: http://www.robhand.com/firdar2.htm and you can scroll down to see how the tables work.

Kyle here...

Thanks TC, I'm sort of at a loss to explain the dasa system through what I know of western astrology. The most popular version of the dasa system used in the west is the Vimsotari, however, there's a lesser known system called Chara dasa. Essentially, the houses hold indicators, the planets, and based on their longitude in their house, they become indicators. Much like the first seven houses of the horoscope. Hindu astrology uses the seven 'inner' planets, and the nodes, Rahu and Ketu, that i referred to in an earlier post. The houses then 'aspect' eachother in a fixed way. There is a primary dasa house and a sub house in the dasa. The primary house lasts for a set number of years, or months even, and the sub-houses cycle through the zodiac.

In MJ's case, he was in Leo-Virgo dasa period (starting 08/08), and each sub-period for 12 months: a sub period a year for the next twelve years.

the indicators/karakas in his (21.53) chart are:

Mars, Atma(soul)
Saturn, Amatya(wealth, etc...2nd house areas)
Venus, Bhratri(3rd house affairs)
Moon, Matri (4th)
Sun, Putra(5th)
JUPITER, Gnati(SIXTH)
Mercury, Dara(7th)

The Gnati Karaka is the hardship indicator. The planets in this system lose almost all of their basic indicators, i.e. Saturn is no longer operating as Saturn, he's a karaka for, in MJ's case, 2nd house matters. That is then blended together with other aspects and the houses themselves, and the system starts to jump from the page. I highlighted Jupiter because it is not a good planet or indicator for MJ. In the natal chart Jupiter rules the 8th and 11th houses. Jupiter also becomes the Gnati karaka in the chara dasa system. Like western astrology, in the Hindu system you take these criteria and formulate an approach to the chart. The Hindu system is very Lunar in nature. Textures and hues are very fuzzy and blended: you're taught to trust intuition rather than hard corroborating data.

If you're wondering if this chara dasa period for MJ portends hardship and even death, you're absolutely right. Leo, which holds Sun and Mercury, is aspected by Libra, which holds the dreaded gnati karaka, Jupiter. (as well as Mars, the atma karaka, in Aries). Also, the Virgo sub-period he was in. The Rahu/Ketu (nodal) axis are the only planets active in Virgo aspected houses. The eighth house in MJ's natal chart is also involved in the Virgo aspected houses.

It's easy in the eastern system to see what you want to. That's why a person should never rectify a birthtime with the dasa system. However, when all these parts start to tell a similar story, as if they agree with eachother, the evidence can be extremely persuasive. I said in an earlier post that the 21.53 time 'spoke' to me, this is how I meant that.

I also would bet my income for the next ten years that MJ knew his birthtime and had even had several readings. Maybe even an astrologer in his camp. He was an intelligent person: a savvy innovative businessman even. As much as he so seemingly tried to find something that was lost, some kind of OTHERness, no doubt he turned to alternative or even occultist avenues.

He knew his chart. I just don't think he wanted anyone else to.

thanks, i hope this helps some.

Kyle

I have no idea where that smiley on the Leo-Virgo date came from. I'm not really a 'smiley'-user-type...

The date is 08/08. Practically September since the date is 8/29.

Hi Kyle

The script read the combination "8)" as the code for a smiley. I edited your post and ticked "Disable smilies in this post" to get rid of that.

Best wishes
Deb

Hello Tom,

Do me a favor and try 23:29:06 for Michael Jackson and see what you find using your normal methods...

(Time re: Isaac Starkman)

Cast a Solar Return for 2008, using the above time (and Beverly Hills) and you have quite a stellium in the 8th House, with Saturn conjunct Sun on the cusp. He did die of cardiac arrest.

Thanks!

James

Hi,

I am working with the Kundig rectification method, which I have done for over 30 years and found to be extremely relevant. In fact, if there were any Nobel Prize in astrology, I would dedicate Heinrich Kundig as a qualified winner, because what is more relevant in astrology than a specifically defined birth time?

When using this method it is also obvious, that all birth times need to be rectified in order for the timing (especially progressions) to be relevant, also the TOBs coming from birth certificates. The correction time in these cases are only a question of minutes though.
When looking at MJ:s birth time, I noticed that: Michael's quote as "after 10.30 pm" is not worthless but extremely valuable: The only TOB:s (according to Kundig) possible are then: 22.42.23, 23.14.18 and 23.46.14. The first TOB gives a Taurus Asc and the other two gives Gemini rising. In the choice of Taurus or Gemini rising, I find it very obvious that MJ should rather have a Gemini rising, so we can dismiss the first TOB. Now, that we only have two TOB:s to chose from, I would suggest 23.14.18 even if the last TOB is very close to the one that seems most popular in this thread.

Here are a few of the reasons:

The progressed MC (by SA) is in quinqunce (often regarded as a death aspect) to the Mercury-Pluto-Sun stellium in his fourth house and within one degree to Pluto himself at the time of MJ:s death.
Transiting Pluto is exactly on the 8th house cusp (Koch) at the time of MJ:s death.
The Huber Age Point is in quinqunce to Pluto and in square to Neptune.

Other aspects that would be valid also in the 23.46.18 chart:
Transiting Saturn (ruler of the 8th) conjunct the Moon squaring Saturn natally. Transiting Uranus is in a quincunce to his ruling planet Mercury in the 4th and transiting Neptune in opposition the same Mercury.

In the same way, I have come to the following TOB:s for John Lennon: 15.12.20 zone: -1
And Elvis Presley: 5.05.39 zone: +6
You are hereby invited to try these birth times with your own methods. I would suggest using biographical material and progressions/transits.

Jiger

"Solar return chart 2008/09" with 24 CP ascendent from James' post above seems a bit strange; SolarFire calculates it's ASC as 14?14, which in fact is the same as Tom quoted more above. There is no description what settings were used.

* * *

The quote "and you have quite a stellium in the 8th House, with Saturn conjunct Sun on the cusp. He did die of cardiac arrest." may lead one think we can see death in a solar return (SR) chart. We can't, except in some special cases. A crowded 8th house means a lot of other issues such as financial problems, crisis, fears etc., while a person's death could be seen if intended (as a "thinking of suicide as an emergency exit") or slow dying in case of cancer or so. Otherwise we can't see an information written about the way we died or the way we are going to die. (But we can often clearly see this information in the chart of a person close to us.) So, interpreting a chart this way can be dangerous in my opinion.

Bern

I also made several SR 2008/09 charts, regarding different birth times we discussed on. (No chart inserted ? to avoid this post to become huge. Koch housed used.)

SR 2353 (based on BT 23:53 i.e. 11:53pm):
Gemini rising shows "a year of changes, many happenings, travelling and so on", not a critical year at all. Plus Moon is in the 3rd, to strenghten it. This kind of year follows the Capricorn-ASC year which means literally "the year with our hands tied", so it's a kind of relaxing and fruitful year. If this time is correct, there was no thinking od death or a serious crisis. The most crowded is the 4th. I miss an information of a great planning and also the first results of good tickets selling (750.000 in England; estimated income of 50 mio $ for first ten (of 50) concerts); usually such an information shuld be written in 2nd and 11th respectively; this was a huge project in fact, it had to be written somewhere, Aries on 11th cusp is not sufficient ?

SR 2343 (ASC 11 GE 39) is very similar, with a timing relocation for a month approximately.

SR 2329 (ASC 07 GE 56) turns 11th into Pisces, but Aries becomes intercepted, which fits better to a great planning; Jupiter in the 8th allows thinking of "greater income", but is active in January, not in May or June ?; Venus (90 PL), Mercury and Mars are placed in 5th, active from September to November '08, not later; this chart offers some possible death-related information, as Pluto in 7th is placed exactly on the end of June (!) and is partile and applying squared to Venus, which is mutually recepted with Mercury, ruler of ASC (body, me). BUT in this case death is caused by "somebody else" (?). This info makes this birth time more valid than both others. Info about monex still missing.

SR 1735 (ASC 06 AQ 18): Incomes Pisces to Aries (with Uranus activated in December (good opportunity for money earning, good proposition?), Mars in the 8th along with VE and ME; the 8th begins with Saturn ? problems with finances in Autumn 2008. The critical period is February/March here: Pluto shows destroying of his hopes and plans and Neptune is placed in the first (as a ruler of 2nd), while after that Sun steps in, placed in the 7th (others).

SR 1212 (ASC 20 SC 46) fits again. Sagittarius in the 2nd, with Pluto around New Year and Jupiter in May/June! Moon in 9th in February and whole bunch of planets after that ? hopefulness, optimism; Sun and Saturn in the 10th ? serious work on career again; 3 personal planets in the 11th, which is in Virgo and then in Libra ? not bad. There is a checking question (if someone knows about it): did Michael have some good (and promising) contacts with his siblings in the first half of June AND is it possible that around his death those contacts turned out as a failure, disappointment or similar? (This issue can be seen in SR 2353, too.) It might be helpful.

Thanks.
Bern

Do me a favor and try 23:29:06 for Michael Jackson and see what you find using your normal methods...

(Time re: Isaac Starkman)

Cast a Solar Return for 2008, using the above time (and Beverly Hills) and you have quite a stellium in the 8th House, with Saturn conjunct Sun on the cusp. He did die of cardiac arrest.

2008 SR for Bev Hills, CA
Aug 28, 2008
11:44:23 PM

7 Gemini 52 rises
18 Aquarius 06 on the MC

With a birth time difference between Starkman's and the 11:53 PM chart of less than 20 minutes, I don't see how we can get a solar returns that are so far off. I ran Starkman's birth time on Janus and Solar Fire and came up with identical charts with both programs. Gemini rises in the nativity and in the return.

Tom