Hi Kirk & Mark (and everybody),

I'd argue that the overcoming of a planet by another squaring it from above(the 10th sign from the first planet) and thus dominating the first planet(from Antiochus, Paulus, etc.) and its affairs is worse than the opposition, which is a more complicated relation than "enmity" describes, perhaps one of both mutual hostility and interest.

As for the "need" of an opposition, I can agree that it is not necessary or even desirable. Every chart as every person is unique and will resist any sort of absolute fit to a particular paradigm, whether that paradigm be psychological or whatever.

Gabe

GR wrote:
I'd argue that the overcoming of a planet by another squaring it from above(the 10th sign from the first planet) and thus dominating the first planet(from Antiochus, Paulus, etc.) and its affairs is worse than the opposition, which is a more complicated relation than "enmity" describes, perhaps one of both mutual hostility and interest.

Gabe

For what it is worth, I would say the same, that a predominating square is VERY, VERY disturbing.

margherita

It's worth a lot to me, Margherita! At least I know I'm not that crazy.

Gabe

margherita wrote:

GR wrote:
I'd argue that the overcoming of a planet by another squaring it from above(the 10th sign from the first planet) and thus dominating the first planet(from Antiochus, Paulus, etc.) and its affairs is worse than the opposition, which is a more complicated relation than "enmity" describes, perhaps one of both mutual hostility and interest.

Gabe

For what it is worth, I would say the same, that a predominating square is VERY, VERY disturbing.

margherita

Hi Gabe (& now Margherita) ,

I would see the 10th sign square as dominating along the lines of a driving ambition or goal, the tension produced by the desire to achieve something. That's not the same as the flat out confrontation ? the frustrating NO! ? of the opposition.

Hi Kirk,

Fear that we are going to derail the thread again. But, the dominating from the 10th isn't free; it comes at the expense of the other planet! It's not NO, it's "Here's my idea, let me shove it down your throat, and let me know what it tastes like?" I'd rather have the No, thank you very much. And actually, following the progression of the aspects, the overcoming square is going to be preceded by the opposition, retrogradation notwithstanding.

Gabe

Kirk wrote:Hi Gabe (& now Margherita) ,

I would see the 10th sign square as dominating along the lines of a driving ambition or goal, the tension produced by the desire to achieve something. That's not the same as the flat out confrontation ? the frustrating NO! ? of the opposition.

But, the dominating from the 10th isn't free; it comes at the expense of the other planet! It's not NO, it's "Here's my idea, let me shove it down your throat, and let me know what it tastes like?"

Yes, the 10th-sign square does seem to be more of an obsession, a needed fulfillment, a goad, a drive, a persistent dream, a command ? the command to produce/achieve/acquire something. But that something is for the chart native. The square can produce a result for the native.

The opposition is the forced need for the native to give way. It's something that the native can't have all to himself or herself (or the native is split within). The opposition produces divisiveness for the native, an unstable state of either/or. What is produced for the native is the unstable state or a dichotomy.

Generalizations, in any case.

* * * * * * * * *

Edited to add: With so many factors to consider I'm not sure I should be getting so carried away with this 10th-sign square idea ? I'm getting myself into hot water. But I would say that oppositions are more simplistically difficult and problem-causing than 10th-sign squares.

I would say that oppositions are more simplistically difficult and problem-causing than 10th-sign squares.

From the horary perspective, so would I. But it looks like opinion is split on this, so how about we move on and bring the thread back to a discussion of what it means to have a lack of oppositions in a birth chart? Or maybe what it means to have an opposition? Anyone care to venture a personal example?

I'd argue that the overcoming of a planet by another squaring it from above(the 10th sign from the first planet) and thus dominating the first planet(from Antiochus, Paulus, etc.) and its affairs is worse than the opposition, which is a more complicated relation than "enmity" describes, perhaps one of both mutual hostility and interest.

But you are outlining a quite specific variety of square. I thought it was clear we were discussing aspects in general terms. Once you get down to specifics there are a variety of caveats. What about a dexter square?

We devoted an entire thread to the issue of what the predominating planet was or what a sinister square was. Maybe it was just me being obtuse but I recall there was some disagreement in even agreeing what these terms refer to:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4765

I personally have no oppositions or squares of the traditional planets. However, I do have a Jupiter-Neptune opposition along the ASC-Desc axis. I read one cookbook delineation that suggested this could generate deluded notions of omnipotence. Hopefully that is a tad OTT.

The Neptune opposition to the ascendant manifests in few ways.
For example a sleep disorder. Moreover, despite a Taurean ascendant, and lots of earth in the chart I have a definite chaotic side. Neptune on the DESC makes it difficult to be realistic in relationships. I also seem to attract people who live out this Neptunian dimension for me at work ( I work with lots of vulnerable, homeless people-drug/alcohol dependency or depression is quite a common factor in my casework). I have also had my share of Neptunian partners.... More positively, this Neptune reflects my involvement in astrology and spiritual groups. I suspect the involvement of Jupiter makes this opposition less destructive. Neptune forms the apex of a Kite formation in my chart. I think it symbolizes integrating the potential of the earth grand trine. One area I think modern astrology has some useful insights on is that you can have too much of a good thing! It is interesting that so many successful people seem to possess a T square formation in the chart.

Mark

Deb wrote:

I would say that oppositions are more simplistically difficult and problem-causing than 10th-sign squares.

From the horary perspective, so would I. But it looks like opinion is split on this, so how about we move on and bring the thread back to a discussion of what it means to have a lack of oppositions in a birth chart? Or maybe what it means to have an opposition? Anyone care to venture a personal example?

Sure. I have a lot of oppositions in my chart; notably Saturn and Pluto opposite sun. They are not conjunct, but their midpoint is within a degree of exact opposition. I have Moon opposite Mercury/Venus and Saturn opposite Mars. My ascendant opposes my descendant (just kidding on that one!)

I think oppositions to one's sun are difficult, especially with planets that are so easily believed to be "not me." For a lot of my life, it seemed that my interests--indeed, my rights--were opposed by older, powerful, even ruthless people. Then I figured out that I am all of those points in my chart. There is no horoscopic Saturn external to who I am. That helped a lot.

I don't believe in a highly deterministic, fatalistic astrology. I don't believe that God (or the universe, for atheists) set up our galaxy to create intrinsically malevolent influences upon our circumstances and personalities. I am comfortable with a choice-centred astrology, in which part of life's challenge is to follow the dictum of Dale Carnegie: "When fate hands you a lemon, make lemonade."

A big opening for me was modern astrologer Steven Forrest's interpretation of planets as "teachers" and "tricksters." The key is to work with a planet's teacher persona, and not to be trapped by the trickster.

In the case of oppositions, I try to think of each planet as a teacher. In life, a teacher, coach, or mentor will frequently check and correct the student. It may not be fun, but it is necessary for the student or athlete to improve.

Right now, I see Saturn as my wisest teacher. His lessons of frugality, hard work, patience, and resourcefulness seem especially worthwhile in today's trying economic times. One might even argue that ignorance of the teacher got the world into the financial mess of personal and national overspending, unsupportable investments, and the American mortage meltdown.

Now that I am past my second Saturn return, and as an early retiree with a small pension that meets my needs, I think my Saturn opposite sun was probably a helpful thing in my chart. It wasn't fun getting here, but supposedly Saturn rewards his pupils later in life, and I think that's true.

A key word for oppositions is "balance." We cannot let one energy entirely eclipse another, but we have to find ways for both of them to coordinate within our lives. With Mars opposite Saturn, the outdoor enthusiast in me pays attention to Saturn's demands for precautions and safety-first. With Moon opposite Mercury, I need to balance head-heart issues.

So oppositions are placements that can help personal growth. But it can take a lot of pain to get there if we resist the process by thinking of them as unmitigated negative chart factors.

I think oppositions to one's sun are difficult, especially with planets that are so easily believed to be "not me." For a lot of my life, it seemed that my interests--indeed, my rights--were opposed by older, powerful, even ruthless people. Then I figured out that I am all of those points in my chart. There is no horoscopic Saturn external to who I am.

I'm not understanding you here. If such people played those unpleasant roles in your life then didn't they objectively exist? Just as we are not all the people in our life, so the planets and points in our chart aren't merely about us. In your case those people would seem to be well indicated by the opposition. I see the planets as representing both the other people in our life and the other people that we are within. I very much like James Hillman's idea of being a boarding house of characters and not simply one well-defined person trying so hard to 'individuate'.

I have a fiercely difficult predominating square - Mars, Saturn and Pluto in Leo all square my Mercury in Scorpio, with Saturn also squaring Scorpio Ascendant, Jupiter and South Node for good measure.

I'll trade you my predominating square for your opposition.

Seriously, it has been brutally difficult to deal with this square. While I agree that in horary the opposition is definitely worse than the square, I don't see how we can measure which aspect is more difficult in a natal chart, as a general rule, but only in particular cases you might judge based on which planets are involved and that sort of thing.

Tara

Kirk, sure those people objectively existed. And I had objective evidence about their real life opposition to me. But did they exist as Saturnian or whatnot to themselves? Quite possibly not. I do know that once I began to own both halves of my oppositions I didn't encounter too many people like the disowned energies anymore.