Hi Steven
Going back to your earlier post, I think you expressed beautifully what I was struggling to put into words myself, about the association between the 6th house and enemies:
Steven wrote:So my question is what did the ancients mean by "enemies" in this house? It is clear it was not centered on what enemy or who as much as it was on what happened to his fortune because of them and the injuries; physical, mental, emotional, financial etc. This was the house of things happening to him which were unfortunate. This is a rather important distinction and is, as I understand it, the reason "enemy" is placed in this house. Nowhere does Valens, for example, speak of someone being an enemy but rather what occurs because of different influences, all of which are contrary and causing separations, exiles, conflict and injury to his fortune.
Thank you for putting the references that led you to that conclusion.
I don?t want to write as if we can now assume your post has settled that point, because perhaps not everyone will agree with you as much as I do, but I think you have summarised it as well as it is possible for anyone to summarise it!
But that still leaves the controversy over whether the 7th house was anciently used to signify the main opponent, and on this I want to add a few remarks to the comments that you made:
Steven wrote:there is not a single medieval Arabic astrologer that calls the 7th open enemies. If you read Masha'allah, Omar, Abu Ma?shar, Al Qabisi, Ibn Labban etc. they never call it the house of "open enemies".
The term ?open enemies? is perhaps a very modern term, so I don?t think we should even try to look for that particular term being used, but should aim to see the principle in use. Lilly, for example, using an older form of English, uses the term ?public enemies? when describing the signification of the 7th house (CA., p.54) -
public here simply meaning ?made known about? rather than meaning the enemy of ?the public at large? as a modern student might assume at first glance. When he uses the term ?private enemies? in reference to the 12th house, he means unknown enemies rather than individual opponents, because the word
private usually meant that which was kept hidden in his terminology. I know that this is 17th century terminology and so off the scale of this thread in a way; but my point is that the intended meaning of ancient definitions has to be extracted by context. As you?ve shown, we can get a very different account of things simply by moving from one author to another; so I also think it is important to look at the underlying philosophy that stands up over time, because that illuminates the principle being defined.
Anyway, you then say:
Probably the most influential astrologer of the medieval Arabs was Abu Ma'shar and he says this:
The seventh is the place of women, marriages, controversies and opposition.
There is no reference to "open enemies". Abu Ma'shar, as the Greeks, refers us to the 12th for enemies and their natures. Sahl preceding Abu Ma'shar writes;
The seventh house is the angle of the west; it signifies marriages and matters relating to women, battles, and contentions and contrarieties, and [especially] contentions that are between two people...
Contentions and battles between people does not make enemies an absolute. Haven't you ever had contentions with a friend? If you contend with someone are they automatically an enemy?
To my mind those quotes
do show an absolute association between the 7th and ?the enemy?; at least in the way I am defining the term enemy. I see the 7th house as signifying the foe who will attack and engage in battle, rather than the person who is injurious by subtle means. Perhaps a better name is ?adversary? because as well as having friends who can become temporarily become opponents, it is also possible to have an opponent who (at times) expresses friendship. Still, during the period of the battle / war / controversy; they are opponents, and so the person with the opposing interest: ie., the enemy.
Maybe we have to accept subjective differences, but I would say that we do see a clear distinction of the 7th being used for the ?open? enemy here; with the 12th being used for the subtle, injurious hand of the unknown saboteur - even in the references you used. For example, Sahl:
The seventh place indicates what opposes him in power and what associates with him and antagonizes him. It is said to be the place of opponents, wives, husbands and partners.
...
The twelfth place indicates the inconsistencies and what contradicts and what harms him. It is said to be the place of enemies, opponents, misfortunes, griefs, imprisonment, captivity, meanness...
I think that is demonstrated by implication.
In reference to the 12th house you say:
There is only one astrologer he refers to which uses the term "secret enemies" and that is one Ad-Dawla, whoever he may be. The majority of medieval Arabic astrologers in the historical record did not use enemy, open or otherwise for the 7th. But in mundane considerations regarding conflicts and interrogations and elections for war, the 7th was seen as the opposing army but we should not confuse the extremely different uses of astrology. Because one uses the 7th in an election for war does not give a precedent for using it to signify enemies in a nativity simply because the nature of the examinations is quite different.
It would be interesting to know more about the Ad-Dawla reference.
If a house signification is valid, then surely it stacks up in all branches of astrology? What applies in horary should apply in natal and electional and mundane astrology too. We wouldn?t say that a friend is eleventh house for natal work but not for mundane astrology. Instead we assume that since the 11th house is a friend or a friendly situation in the nativity, then it will signify a friendly nation or friendly assistance in mundane work too.
It is probable that most of the practical examples of the 7th house as the enemy (in ancient or early texts) would be found in reference to mundane situations ? such as ingresses or great conjunctions, where the 7th will impact upon the possibility of war or engaging with an enemy. But this is partly because these matters were of greater importance, so we have better examples of their use. As you mentioned, we find this in Dorotheus, and we also find it in very ancient sources of the symbolism that we assume to show the symbolism that was built into house meanings. I am thinking of the well known diagram of ancient Etruscan liver divination which shows divisions similar to those we find in astrology, where the eastern angle is associated with 'the familiar' and the western angle is associated with 'the hostile'. A lengthy research project is probably required here!
One of the important points you have clarified in your post, is that we are all going to be talking at cross purposes if we don?t first identify what we mean by a term like ?enemy?, because in their own way I can see how the 6th 12th or 7th all have valid connections to this term. I think you put that point across very well indeed.
With regard to the circle of Athla, I'm afraid I don?t know too much about their origin, or their usefulness in practice. Maybe it would be a good idea to start a new thread on that issue - especially since this thread is now getting quite long and has a few complex issues already ?
Deb