Of course I have no way of knowing! But based on what you described, it would require some strength to endure what you described (which sounds quite plutonic to me.) Also, that's why I said that the Sun/Pluto page in the Combination of Stellar Influences is quite interesting in that regard. Have you checked it out to see if it applies to you at all? At any rate, this is a rather sensitive issue and I have no interest in discussing personal natal charts, so I will drop it here.

Astrology is about the music of the spheres. Astrological textbooks can only give us some very basic clues about how each planet "sounds", but they cannot describe the melody! And a tone sounded in the context of a melody sounds very different than if it sounded alone! Influences are modified by context.

It's been a while since I've read the Book of Job. The book gives quite a struggle. Especially when he says:"What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" (Job 2:10, King James version). On one side it seems hard to accept that we would be given misery by the hand of God. On the other side it disconnects prosperity and misfortune from respectively good and evil. This view faces the problem of the cases in which bad people receive prosperity and good people misfortune and explains why this is not because of some reward/punishment (and I'd say especially not because of some 'karma' or the (mis)deeds in previous lives).

Having a chart filled with hard aspects and afflictions (also those from Pluto), rather than neutrally seeing it as a potentiality I tended to see my chart as something to get rid of. For this I've also found it a very attractive view to see planetary 'effect' as a mere physical, causal one rather than symbolic or spiritual. Many astrologers strongly oppose this view as materialistic, but I've felt it as the best mean of disconnecting the spiritual from the 'allocated' natal chart and therefore from any kind of 'evolutionary' or 'transformative' view. From this perspective you don't need to ponder anymore 'why' you were born with a difficult chart.

Seeing Pluto transits this way allows to take some distance from them. Experiencing them would be nothing more than getting the flu. When the flu is around some people are affected some are not. Perhaps this could explain that some people feel Pluto transits and some not. Besides the possibility that Pluto effects are largely exaggerated or don't exist at all, no deeper spiritual meaning needs to be given to this presence or absence of effects, just like the flu has no meaning nor is a 'punishment'. It just happens or not. Hence I've found Thomas Aquinas' view of astrology the most attractive one, that the planets affect the body and possibly via the body, the intellect indirectly. From this point of view it's possible that the effect doesn't always reaches the intellect and is experienced as non-effective. Again, a neutral position towards such (non-)experience is possible.

Whether the effects ascribed to Pluto be imaginary or real, it doesn't matter. Now I'm taking a more distant position and looking in my past approach towards Pluto transits during hard times, I think I would have done better if I never had taken that planet into consideration during those periods. Why be hit when you're down? Without Pluto there are enough malefics, whether they are in the universe or on Earth.

Hi Eddy -

We definitely agree on the last - who needs extra malefics in the chart?

In truth, if I found them useful I would have kept using them, but I don't, and a lot of people seem to not notice the transits, and there's usually something else that explains things as well or better.

Life is hard enough. It really is. We don't need more bad guys. Completely with you there.

Isaiah 45, 6-7

6. In order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am the Lord and there is no other.
7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

If it helps any, it's said in Jewish tradition that the only question that Moses asked of God that God would not answer was the Job question. Why do the wicked prosper and the righteous suffer? We can't know, because we can't understand.

Job is an Egyptian text, probably a play. It's very old, maybe the oldest story in the bible - I'm very glad someone thought to save it. People have been struggling to come to terms with this for many, many thousands of years. As long as we've been here and able to think. And yes, it's the disconnect that makes me think it's the best answer available - it's not because you're doing evil, or worse, because you were doing evil in some past life you don't even remember. Bad things happen in this world. Full stop. Blaming the victim is turning into one of Job's comforters - not what astrologers should strive to be.

Many astrologers today aren't remotely conversant with the bible, or any other ancient wisdom texts, because they feel there's nothing to be learnt from them - that makes me very sad. Not because I believe people ought to believe in God, but I do think it's important to realise that we aren't the first generation - not by far - to deal with these same things, and twisting the concept of karma beyond all recognition, or deciding that some souls evolve and others don't, isn't the answer.

Astrology applied without wisdom is a dangerous thing.

I don't agree with Aquinas on astrology only affecting the body, but he's certainly in good company with many of the neo-Platonists and hermeticists.

I think 'transcending your chart' may be a modern idea. As Waybread put it, if you 'own your planets' then you learn the lessons and mature and are free of their worst effects. Please nobody jump to the conclusion that I'm equating modern with bad here.

Of course, if you are a good Christian, Jew, Muslim, whatever, in some quarters anyway, it's said the chart has no hold over you and you're under God's protection.

Judaism is the one that's most split on the issue, since about half the rabbis of the Talmud were accomplished astrologers, or at least sympathetic to the ideas of those who were, and the other half hated astrology - it got quite lively in some of those debates! But arguably, that's made it a bit easier to be a Jew and an astrologer than a Christian or a Muslim throughout most of history. Some people might not like it, but if you were not 'as the Chaldeans' - in other words - actually worshipping the stars and planets - you were okay.

Some people prefer to skip the subtleties of the argument and assume that astrology is idolatry, full stop. That road can lead to holy wars (look at the places you can still get killed even now for being an astrologer), so probably not advisable.

There are definitely a number views to take, though. I don't believe in physical stellar rays, aside from the obvious ones like how the Sun and Moon affect the earth itself. But Ptolemy took that view, and he's not the only one. So do many modern astrologers.

Or you can just plain reject astrology completely.

Whichever works. Just don't use it to terrorise yourself, or make yourself feel 'less than' other people somehow - because you're not.

Eddy wrote: Having a chart filled with hard aspects and afflictions (also those from Pluto), rather than neutrally seeing it as a potentiality I tended to see my chart as something to get rid of. For this I've also found it a very attractive view to see planetary 'effect' as a mere physical, causal one rather than symbolic or spiritual. Many astrologers strongly oppose this view as materialistic, but I've felt it as the best mean of disconnecting the spiritual from the 'allocated' natal chart and therefore from any kind of 'evolutionary' or 'transformative' view. From this perspective you don't need to ponder anymore 'why' you were born with a difficult chart......

Whether the effects ascribed to Pluto be imaginary or real, it doesn't matter. Now I'm taking a more distant position and looking in my past approach towards Pluto transits during hard times, I think I would have done better if I never had taken that planet into consideration during those periods. Why be hit when you're down? Without Pluto there are enough malefics, whether they are in the universe or on Earth.

We are getting into the problem of theodicy-- why a purportedly kind and loving God would permit evil in the world; or "why bad things happen to good people."

The take on this question that makes the most sense to me is that our souls chose to incarnate at a particular time and place, as most conducive to the types of challenges we most wanted to contribute to our growth process. Human suffering is always a challenge to the non-sufferer to make the world a better place. I don't expect others to believe this, however.

I would not recommend that anyone who seriously engages with astrology see their chart as something to escape. If I might join the "pity party", most of my planets are involved in oppositions; and the ones that arent' are involved in squares. And yes, they have manifested in my life. It would almost be worthwhile on another thread having a contest to see whose natal chart most resembles a train wreck.

The whole point of a choice-centred astrology, however, is to develop more empowering interpretations of negatives. For example, with my Mars in Pisces opposed by a 12th house Saturn in Virgo, I am somewhat invested in water sports where challenges to my timidity and limited athletic ability are balanced with the need for constructive Saturnian values like patience, hard work, and deferred gratification. Right now I am trying to build up my swimming endurance, despite having serious knee and foot problems. I am not saying this to boast (nor would you, if you saw my physical condition ) but just to suggest my first-hand experience that the hard aspects are available to be worked on to good effect.

And didn't Lilly do this with his hororary astrology? He saw difficulties in the charts he cast for various problems, but oftentimes he helpfully suggested how his clients could ameliorate them.

But hey, I am all for Aquarian detachment.

I don't buy the idea that "we don't need another malefic." For one thing, if Pluto is there doing its work, it has an effect whether we like it or not. Moreover, in choice-centred modern astrology, no planet is truly malefic or benefic. Learn Saturn's lessons, and he helps you out in old age. (I am past my 2nd Saturn return, and I think that's true.) Don't learn Jupiter's negative side, and you overspend your credit card or overeat.

Olivia, with your sun trine Pluto, you may have had a crash course in Pluto prior to your 25th birthday. It would seem so. Naivete is not a good quality for anyone, so just possibly you can see how you matured out of your difficult early circumstances. People always script their lives in some narrative fashion, and "empowering" beats "disempowering".

Olivia--Is your glass half-empty or half-full? I've tried both, and half-full is better.

I live surrounded by retired farmers who grew up without electricity or indoor plumbing (some from Canada's "bush" country), who worked in the fields from early ages, raised families, and who are now beset with the illnesses that affect the elderly, ranging from cancer to one who just died of lupus. I have heard these neighbours talk about their health, but never do they complain about it. They would be ashamed to do so. Regardless of what goes on in these people's horoscopes and lives they are determined to make the best of it. This is how they were raised. While I am as sympathetic as the next person to genuine human suffering, I find these neighbours' fortitude to be inspirational. I raise my half-full glass to them.

And I think inspiration about the good in each human is a gift that astrologers can give their clients/advisees.

I don't do past-lives or karmic astrology. Much of what I've read about it offends my sense of logic and historical evidence. As with Jewish belief, I find people's actions in the here-and-now sufficient to explain a certain amount of what befalls them--never mind an unknowable afterlife. As for the rest of the theodicy difficulties, a religious person would trust to God's plan.

I think this thread has turned away from the original topic of Pluto transits and we already have other threads on traditionalist views on the outer planets.

I do notice Pluto transits but also transit planets to my natal Pluto. Maybe you can use other methods to describe these occurances, but such is the nature of astrology. I have a Vedic astrologer aquaintance who is always accurate in his predictions for my chart, and he uses entirely different methods all around than I do. So am I wrong and he is right? As one person mentioned, we can all use different tools for our trade, but that doesn't make one more correct than the other.

I am going through a Saturn conjunct Pluto transit right now and my Pluto is in the 4th house. My upbringing was very dark, and I literally lived in slums (cockroach infested, black mold, druggies/prostitutes gallore, also haunted, etc.) and I have ended up back where I started during economic downturns. I am living with my family again in a slum. My natal 4th holds no other planets and is ruled by Mercury, who is essentially and accidentally dignified, although separating from a conjunction to Mars, then Jupiter and next applies to trine Saturn, so it does have traditional malefic influences which Jupiter cannot entirely mitigate, although it does stop it from being besieged (Jupiter rules my 9th, 10th and 6th in the 1st and my self-starter abilities are basically my way out). Still Pluto describes my 4th house much better than Mercury, IMO. There was a lot of evil around me growing up, including fearing for my safety, especially rape, which could have easily happened many times. If I were to think of one planetary connection that describes rape, or the daily fear of it, well it would be hard aspects between Venus and Pluto. I was almost kidnapped several times also. I have a natal Venus in detriment Pluto opp, but Jupiter in the 1st seems to be protective (so far). My mother is a natal Venus in detriment square Pluto also (vs. the opp) and she was raped at least twice in her life.

I recently had transit Pluto in my 6th house for several yrs whilst going through a change in health. It began around 2000, when it hit my Moon on the cusp, which was when my health changes began. I am a natal ASC ruler Moon in the 6th square Saturn and suffered from poor health my entire life, including yearly pneumonia, bladder and kidney infections. Pluto cleared that house out and I eat much differently, excercise regularly. My body and health is completely changed from when I was younger. I haven't been sick (other than one minor cold) for at least three years, which is basically a miracle. I went through a Saturn return and a Saturn profection recently and Saturn is in hard aspect to my Moon in natal and rules the 8th, so one would think I'd have been quite bad off. I also has a Solar return with Sun in the 6th this yr and haven't been sick at all. I have had back and neck pain from long commutes on the bus, though, and Saturn sits in my 3rd house in natal.

There was another thread on transit Pluto-Moon transits sometimes indicating important relationships, and the only long-term relationship I've ever had was when Pluto conjunct my Moon, although I had other notable influences as well. One could argue either way, but that fact remains that Pluto was there as well.

For Pluto's transits I use an orbs of time. They can felt up to 2 years in ones life. Sometimes they are 3 or more degrees away and they can still feel. Though the exact moment of touch is more intense and brings (in many cases) actual events, on emotional-mental level Pluto's transits are still present long after.

good one

I felt

pluto conj sun
pluto conj moon
pluto conj uranus

didnt feel t all

4 years of pluto square venus and ehh jupiter and saturn aspected venus during the time when pluto was squaring it

right now .. pluto opposes mars - nothing going!

pondering
CD

Pluto transits are extremely powerful. I am an old man now, and have observed their effects in my own life (and the lives of others) for a long time. When Pluto reaches my horizon in 2014 he will kill me. Nasty old Pluto.

My most recent Pluto transit was over my directed Moon, which is passing through the Sixth House. I never go visit doctors, don't like them all that much. But I went to see the doctor when Pluto passed over my Moon.

An astrologer friend of mine had Pluto transit over his natal Mars (singleton above the Earth, in exaltation). He made his direct passage, and then when he came back in Rx motion and was within one minute of arc of natal Mars (not precessed) my friend was stabbed very seriously while at the local convenience store. The transits of Pluto are of course once-in-a-lifetime affairs.

A woman just the other day consulted me regarding her ruined marriage. Guess who just entered her Seventh House.

I think this example is pertinent. I talked with a woman some years ago. Pluto was approaching her natal Neptune posited in the Sixth House. As I recall the orb was around 7 or 8 degrees. Just a couple of weeks before we talked she had joined Alcoholics Anonymous and at least as of the time of our chat was committed to overcoming her addiction. Note the wide orb.

After some years of doubt, I recently felt it would be better for me to kick out Pluto. Although I used to believe to have corrected my birth time from a whole hour to some minutes later (and later even to the seconds), a final 'correction' failed when absolutely nothing significant, no 'plutonian feelings' etc occurred to me as previously.

Also since the growth of the number of small Pluto like objects last 10/20 years made me doubt about this little brat. The poll was not set up by me as a vote as aim in order to determine which side is right. If people don't notice Pluto planets, it's rather an interesting challenge to find out why they don't and why I (allegedely?) did.

Now I'll have to live again with a rough birthtime rounded up to the hour. But I don't mind. It releases me of all too much strain on mathematical calculations of especially primary directions.

I have little doubt that Pluto transits work. I've seen it for 20 years before I got into traditional techniques.

When Pluto was conjunct my ascendant my whole life changed - Dean of the school at Univ of Denver burned down Buchtel Chapel, Dr. Jay Trowell who I was getting ready to do my honors thesis with committed suicide, etc and I lost financial aid thanks to Reagan, etc...

Pluto opposite the Moon I saw in the ephemeris back in 1988 and worried that this might mean the passing of my mother in 1999. As time came closer I doubted this, but it came to pass exactly as I had originally saw it.

Pluto square my natal Mars and I was benching 405 lbs and training with some of the strongest men in the world. I herniated my L5 causing damage to the sciatic nerve doing shoulder shrugs with 600 lbs for about 10 reps. This left me unable to stand for more than 5 minutes at a time in early 2004. I thought I'd end up in a wheelchair by summer if it didn't get any better, but it healed about 3 months later on its own.

Transiting Pluto opposite my 9th house Venus... need I say more?

Now many of these could be backed up by looking at traditional techniques and other techniques could confirm. For instance at the same time Pluto crossed my ascendant in 1983, transiting Saturn was conjunct transiting Pluto. What people have to remember is that because of Bodes Law, all the outer planets circular periods are multiples of Saturn. Uranus is 3 Saturn cycles, Neptune is 6 and Pluto is 9 Saturn cycles. Working with harmonics is the modern equivalent of the ancient practice of using planetary periods / time lords to measure time.