Mark wrote:Andrew wrote:

It is quite symbolic with the South node transiting the sign of Gemini at this point in time, Gemini being associated with London. Could someone check me on whether Lilly says that London is in particular associated with 19 Gemini ? If this were the case, then there would again be reason to point out the position of the Moon's South node, currently at 20 Gemini.

..................

Still, I acknowledge the Gemini link to London is long established. According to this piece by the late Maurice McCann on Lilly's prediction of the Great Fire of London, the city is associated with the 14th degree of Gemini.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/fire.html

Maybe, I see things differently, but isn't 19degrees of today the 14 degrees of 1666 !!

and bellatrix is hovering precariously close to this degree.

Lilly CA-III

M.C directed to left shoulder of Orion at 15.40 Gemini

"To the left shoulder of Orion, in 15.40. Gemini.

It produceth many Calamities and Wranglings, he shall fall into the Hate and cunning snares of his Adversaries, and unlesse he handle his affaires wisely, will be in danger of imprisonment, by the accusations and sinister
aspects of Secretaries, Atturneys, &c. receive Punishment and Infamy for forging or counterfeiting Writings, or clipping Coyne, or by meanes of false and dissembling, suggested Witnesses, or sinister Informations
"

So much fixed stars and precession

PD

Wolfgang wrote:Yes I see, here we are all doing retrospective catch up. But what for? To learn astrology, to learn doing what a astrologer is doing, to look a little bit behind the curtain. To make forecast?! All sense of the science is: to make prognosis!

In a matter like this I think we find ourselves as observers and script readers. We are attempting to monitor current affairs, understand our present time and discuss in whatever way such emperical observations may be rationalized, illuminative or in any way useful. It could be passing on information regarding something going on on the other end of the yardstick.

Meanings are used from the German writer Otto P?llner, which used abstracts (excerpts) from (old) english astrologers and also ancient source material. But he did not always write down clear the kind sources. With a lot of investigation it will be possible to find the sources. I have not the time in the moment...

That's OK, but leaves room for some catching up. Maybe later?

In a matter like this I think we find ourselves as observers and script readers. We are attempting to monitor current affairs, understand our present time and discuss in whatever way such emperical observations may be rationalized, illuminative or in any way useful. It could be passing on information regarding something going on on the other end of the yardstick.

I confess I feel as if this event really caught me napping. I think many UK astrologers may be feeling the same. What frustrates me is that I didn't really put the necessary work in on the relevant charts. Having studied them now I honestly believe this event or something quite similar was predicatable. The ingress charts, eclipse and national charts all showed something of this nature was indicated.

For example, take a look at the United Kingdom 1927 chart again.
Uranus was in partile conjunction to the IC by retrograde motion at the outbreak of the riots. The riots fit the symbolism of Uranus on the IC perfectly as unexpected , violent protests. Uranus in Aries is currently activating the the trine to Saturn in Sagittarius in the 1927 chart. In the radix 1927 chart Mars ruler of the IC and 12th house is square mercury (Lord 7 and whole sign ruler of the 10th). At the time of the riots transiting Mars was in partile conjunction to the 1927 Mars. In December during the student protests transiting Uranus was square the 1927 Mars.

The ingress charts this year have clearly shown Mars is strongly indicated in the events of the year. In particular the Aries ingress set the tone with Mars on the IC. Protests and opposition to government rule have always been indicated. Moreover, all these charts are Scorpio rising which occur in the 12th house of the 1927 chart. The Solar eclipse of January 4th occured in opposition to the 1927 Pluto. So did the pre-lunation chart. This eclipse also had a Uranus Jupiter conjunction square the Mars in the 1927 chart. Both the Lunar eclipse of December 21st and June 15th occured along the 1st-7th house axis of the 1927 chart. In the December lunar eclipse the Moon was very close to the Mars in the 1927 chart.

So where was my predictive work on all this before these events?

Mark

Getting back to the 1066 chart I thought I would post some additional charts for members perusal.

First of all I want to look at the profected 1066 chart. Profections are a useful predictive system that was very popular in ancient and medieval astrology. The idea is that for every passing year the chart rotates one house with a new house on the ascendant. In hellenistic, medieval and renaissance astrology they used profections to establish the 'Lord of the Year' for delineating the key planet in solar returns.

The original approach was based on whole sign houses and set out by astrologers like Vettius Valens. For example, using whole sign house with a Libra rising chart we would have a 10th house profection after 10 years leaving us with a Cancer rising chart. With the 10th house of the horoscope profected to the ascendant the year will have a 10th house quality and 10th house themes can be expected to emerge. The 10th house year profection delineation would also be varied depending on the placement of the planet(s) ruling this sign and the planets that fell in the house in the radical chart.

In later medieval astrology the focus moved to quadrant houses and planets and angles were profected by degree throughout the year as well annually through the houses. I have tended to use the earlier whole sign approach to date but I do think the profected chart based by degree is very interesting when applied to the 1066 chart.

Firstly, lets look at the profectional chart:
We see Capricorn is rising. So based on the 1066 radix this is a 10th house profectional year. Issues around government will be given particular focus. Looking at the MC we see Virgo is on the MC. So in regards government this year has a 6th house profection. Issues of drudgery and hard work predominate government agendas while the social underclass will come to government attention.

The profected ascendant is at 13 Capricorn. Ring any bells?
Is it just a coincidence that that the profected ascendant falls at the same degree in the zodiac as the solar eclipse of January 4th and the pre-lunation before the riots broke out? Astrology is founded on such coincidences!
Comparing the profected chart to the 1066 chart is very instructive. Saturn rules the 1066 Sun, MC, Mercury and Venus. It is located in the x 6th house. The profected Uranus is exactly conjunct the 1066 Saturn.

Mars is angular and conjuct the DESC highlighting a sense of conflict and confrontation. However, with the radical chart having Aries rising this adds a quality of the people themselves in conflict.

The Moon is going through the 8th house (quadrant) whilst it is square Saturn and the nodes.

The ascendant opposes the lot of fortune in the 1066 chart while Jupiter (Lord 12) is on the fixed star Algol emphasizing losing ones head and self undoing.
Mark

I am unfamiliar with profections, Mark, and am careful to wander too deeply into techniques where I am not adept, so I need some special guidance. This is what you appear to be doing: The UK chart for the coronation of William is cast for Dec.25 1066 and has a 22AR17 asc., according to Campion. This means that the UK is 2010-1066= 944 years old and 8 months, if I try to keep things simple and bring the calendary date up to Aug. 25. 2011. 944years is 78 cycles of the zodiac (12x78=936) with 8 years remaining. This means that the Ascendant in the 1066 chart is moved forward 8 signs to 22SG17 on Dec 25. 2010, and then there are the 8 months remaining. If the profected ascendant is moved through one sign in one year, this means the ascendant travels at the speed of 2? 30' in one month. So 8 months moves the ascendant 20? and the profected ascendant on Aug 25. 2011 becomes 12CP17? Am I about right? I have probably made a mistake, because our figures don't quite match - but I don't mind working through the mathematics at a basic level because the techinque is probably unfamiliar to many.

Some may argue that the rotation of the ascendant through the zodiac once every 12 years if a of too general kind and that phenomen like the riots in Britain, doesn't occur once every 12 years. But then what you are doing is showing how the profected ascendant contacts with a recent eclipse, namely Jan 4. 2011 (!!), this being the cause of a national crises involving the people and an uproar against the government. Is that about correct?

Could you fill me in on any differences? Thanks!

Hi Andrew,

Have to rush out to work but one clarification. I am not using 12:00 noon time for the 1066 chart as Campion and others have done. As I stated earlier in the thread in that time local time was purely solar mean time. So I think its more accurate to cast the 1066 chart for Solar Noon ie when the Sun is exactly on the MC. The operative time I am using is 12:05:18. This gives a later rising degree of 25 AR 13. I displayed the radix chart earlier in the thread.

As for the maths I confess I just lazily used my Solar Fire software without doing it by pen and paper. If there are any errors I am happy to walk the plank. Its always more tricky working with such old charts which are harder to check quickly. Ultimately, of course we dont know if this is an accurately timed chart either way so I probably could have selected a better example chart to display profections.

One thing I need to make clear is that there are two distinctly different types of profection chart. The older is whole sign and the sign on the ascendant only changes annually. This is the method Ben Dykes currently uses. In the later medieval method the angles are rolling along all the time. I understand Robert Zoller taught this method. I experimentated with the later method here but I confess I am much more familiar with the original hellenistic technique. The two techniques do lead to different results.

Margherita can probably clarify better than myself as she has written about the later medieval and renaissance profections on her blog.

Mark

Thank you. That explains!
For practical purposes I would agree in putting the Sun on the MC of the UK chart. The accurate time is unknown. The culmination of the Sun at midday is important.

I noticed you calculated the profections up to now. However, I used the exact time of the outbreak of the riots on August 6th.

Mark

Mark wrote:
Margherita can probably clarify better than myself as she has written about the later medieval and renaissance profections on her blog.

Mark

I believe many can describe profections.
In every case, as you stated there is an Hellenistic method, based on whole sign houses.

That's Olympiodorus on Paulus Alexandrinus, one of my favorite authors, because he is very easy:

example. The Horoscope is in Leo, the 27th year. Let's operate in the following way: the first year will be given to Leo, the second to the following place, Virgo, the third to Libra and so on giving the 12 years to the 12 signs. Again the 13rd year will be given to Leo, the 14th to Virgo up to the 24th. The 25th again to the Ascendant, the 26th to Virgo and the 27th to Libra.

The second method is progressing the cusps of the house, almost like Solar Fire. But especially the five hylegiacal places: Asc., MC, Sun, Moon, Fortune. Rumen Kolev published in his booklet "Gauricus and Henry II" a picture from Vindobonensis palatinus 5179 (1460) like this. For example Ascendant was at 27 Virgo, so the next year 27 Libra, the 3rd year 27 Scorpio and so on.

Generally I use this method, which is Cieloeterra one (they use a variant, but this is the idea)

margherita

Again a convincing argument for the whole sign house system IMO.

I learned Profections from Robert Zoller, who did really amazing things and predictions with them in natal charts. Astonishing, really.
The problem was however to account for intercepted signs (and the other ones where two cusps are in one sign), that really messes up delineations.

No such problem with hellenistic whole sign house charts.

Thank you for the clarification! Interesting also, Hermes!

It is the conjunction of the profected ascendant with the recent eclipse that is the key to a national crises, as pointed out by Mark. Then we accept the derivation of the UK 1066 ascendant from the culimination of the Sun on Dec. 25. Is there anything about the profected ascendants conjunction with the eclipse that gives indication to the particulars? Is it the involvement of the 1st house that shows disturbance coming from the people, or could it in another instance have involved an accident, the Royal family or the Prime Minister being forced to resign?

Hermes wrote: The problem was however to account for intercepted signs (and the other ones where two cusps are in one sign), that really messes up delineations.

No such problem with hellenistic whole sign house charts.

In the later method - let's call the Renaissance one- there is no such a problem of intercepted signs, because you should not progress the cusps, you should progress the signs.

Let's say that Ascendant falls at 27 Leo and the second house at 3 Libra. The Ascendant the first year is at 27 Leo, then the same at 27 Virgo.

margherita